POST YOUR FAVORITE RIFLE HERE

[COBRA-6]

Great thread! MarkC and MG34, I am in awe.

For the "fun for your money factor" alone I would have to pick the SKS. A full-bore semi-auto, non-restricted rifle, that you can pick up new for as low as $139 or a little more at $249 for a euro-made model. Not to mention that surplus ammo is dirt-cheap at $169 for a 1120rnd case.

Yeah I know they aren't the most accurate, or pretty, and they're made by commies or former commies, but at 1/10 the price of a AR-15 style rifle, they allow many people to enjoy the shooting sports who otherwise would not be able to. I had mine at the range today as a matter of fact, good clean fun!  ;D

 

[paracowboy]

On a side note, I've been kicking around the idea that something along the lines of the AR-10 would be a good rifle for "light infantry."  By this I mean infantry who will not be operating around LAVs etc. 

I been pushing this idea for a while. 2 x AR-10 per wpns det, minimum, in the hands of designated marksmen. Better would be one per sect,and one in HQ. Same muscle memory, and increases options exponentially.

 

[MG34]

Hell I couldn't even get 1 AR-10 for my platoon,much less per section.

 

[HItorMiss]

MG you must be semi happy then with the return of the C3 to Platoon lvl?

Yes I know the volume of fire if less then the AR10 but it is the same caliber and very accurate.

 

[Red 6]

Not exactly a rifle, but here ya' go. This is me yesterday at the range with the MP5 SMG:

 

[MG34]

MG you must be semi happy then with the return of the C3 to Platoon lvl?

Yes I know the volume of fire if less then the AR10 but it is the same caliber and very accurate.

The C3A1 is adequate in the hands of a trained shooter,I guess we'll see how they do overseas. I'd prefer the AR10T or better yet SR-25 or a variant beggars can't be choosers ,even though I've offered to bring my own AR 10 over..oddly no dice.

 

[KevinB]

The M14DMR's where introduced to fill a gap between the M24 Sniper Rifle and the Aimpoint equipt M4 carbines.  The KAC M110 SASS (Mk11 Mod 0 derivative) is replacing all the M14's in service since the system has serious flaws.
The M14 is either a inaccurate combat weapon (4-5MOA rack typical) or an accurate safe queen (needs lot of TLC in the accurized versions) .

 

[GAP]

As a guy who originally trained on an M14 and M1 (still have my thumbs  ), carried the M14 for the first tour in Viet Nam, it is a fabulous weapon!! A little heavy compared to the M16, but accurate, easy to clean, dependable...what else do you need?

 

[KevinB]

I've shot various US Army M14's from rack grade clunkers to some of the AMU's nicer accurized ones.  I sold my personal ones since I don't see a role for them.
On the Shot vs. Fired issue -- I was tempted to put some .338LM into a Norinco M305 (their M14 clone) and post it as shooting a M305  ;D

It is awkward to scope well.  AND once the AMU guys go to work on them they lose their ability to handle the junk in the field.   I've tried a few scoping methods - KAC M14 RAS, Brookfield, ARMS etc.  nothing likes to keep a zero if being rough handled.

The SR25 series has it hands down -- it does better in both the accuracy and reliability department -- disagree look into the US Army SASS (Semi-Auto Sniper System)
Even the M14 proponents in the US Mil realise it has part is prime and parts and labor make it an impractical current day system.

The US Army brought them back as an intermin measure -- they are being replaced (in the BIG Army) by the M16A4DMR (a A4 with match barrel and freefloat tube, and variable optic), and the SR25 M110 SASS, and in some unit that would not wait AR10T's. USSOC already has precision semi-auto platforms in the Mk12 and Mk11.

The only variant of M14 that seems to be accepted is the Mk13 - and even it has been admitted that it will be replaced in the SEAL Teams as soon as more Mk11's are procured


Heck I was brought up on the FN C1A1 -- but I know its been eclipsed.
Thats a fact - not a slam

 

[Red 6]

The designated marksman program is an interesting study all in itself. it's by no means standardized throughout the Army. Depending on different units, they either use M14s or M16A2/A3s. Most all the M14 rifles used in the program came from Anniston Army Depot, the long term storage site for obsolete/excess small arms. They must still have in excess  of hundreds of thousands of M14s in storage there, even now.

There's a big debate going on in the US Army about this squad designated marksman program, and whether or not its even necessary. I was surprised to read that the Knight's Armament rifle will be put in the hands of SDMs. I wonder if that's an error on the Wikipedia entry? I'll do some more checking on that. it seems like, with Knight's production rate, it will take years for this if it's to go into general service. In any event, if you look on unit TO & Es, there isn't a slot for an SDM. it's something units do on an ad hoc basis. I'm discussing the "line" Army here, not SF, which I don't know much about.

The M14, with say a Trijicon ACOG (4x32) represent an effective weapon for a rifle platoon. I stay in contact with many of my old buddies in my National Guard unit that returned from iraq last year. In my company arms room, we had 12 M14s that were carried on our inventory for funerals and ceremonies. When the unit was training up for Iraq, they did an impact buy of ACOGs and stuck them on the M14s and took them into combat with effective results.

A service grade M14, even with an ACOG, isn't a surgical weapon and it isn't intended to be. But a lot of old Soldiers and Marines remember it fondly as a hard hitting weapon that did the job. Given the constraints of budgets and lead times to develop new eapons, the M14, or even an M16, as  designated marksman rifle is will do the job. The bigger debate is whether or not the SDM program is even necessary.

 

[KevinB]

KAC has substantially increased its production ability -- they took over the old LM Titan Missle site in Titusville (they have a 300m Indoor range, and a 1200m outdoor now as well  )

WRT the DMR topic, given the worthless marksmanship standard of the typical US Infantryman with a Aimpoint and M4 - I think the DMR program is necessary.
(FWIW I dont think the CF standard is any better).  Oddly enough marksmanship in some of the Guard units is better than in some of the regular units -- I've shot against the All Guard team (althought they are full time guard) and they are good.

BigRed can offer you his opinion on some of the M14 eqipt SDM's if he wants too  ;D

As for the stacks of M14's -- according to LTC Dave Liwanag - who is now the AMU Commander there are not vasy stockpiles -- in fact many guys who got issued M14's only got two mags since there are no more parts in the system.

I've seen and talked to guys in that exact predicament so it is not just rumour...


The Shot - Fire -- well when you hit a tgt you say your shot it 
I think Blake was just having some fun

 

[Red 6]

I totally agree that marksmanship standards in the Army are poor. It's not the fault of Soldiers and units. It's the lousy budget allocated for ammo in most units. The Army should spend the money for whatever DMR it intends to procure for line units, and source the money to buy more ammo for riflemen to improve their marksmanship skills. The other issue is that designated marksmen and their skills will get lost in the shuffle of training demands, budgets, etc. For many years prior to the SAW. the auto rifleman in the rifle squad was equipped with an M16 like everybody else. His only difference was a clip-on bipod assigned to him, which invariably remained locked in a footlocker in the arms room. The only time I ever actaully saw a bipod mounted on an M16 rifle was at a dog and pony show at Camp Hansen, Okinawa, in 1982.

 

[GAP]

The only time I ever actaully saw a bipod mounted on an M16 rifle was at a dog and pony show at Camp Hansen, Okinawa, in 1982.

Note to Diners: Take 2 bipods, suspend C-ration can from center, put C-4 underneath, voila ...instant hot food      worked good

 

[GAP]

the E-1 Amtrac shot out 200' of C-4 for bunker busting....we had lots....and yes...we lit it

We couldn't get heat tabs...they had a can of stuff like Sterno...that really stunk up the food

 

[Red 6]

You learn something new every day... bipod as grill accessory.  :-\

 

[GAP]

Correction....it takes 2 bipods....you know...4 legs, doesn't fall over...weren't much good for much else...  adapt and overcome... 

 

[mudgunner49]

You got me all wrong, mudgunner. I was just askin' a question. No need to folks to climb into their fightin' holes. As far as the shoot vs fire thing, you can fire your weapon, I'll shoot mine... :warstory:

Red6

I wasn't engaging - that's why the smiley.  As Kev noted i was indeed just having fun.  My sense of humor is often mistaken for a bad attitude (usually by my wife). ;D

I have a fair bit of time on the M14/M1A series myself and have to agree with I-6.  I do love the weapon for what it is, but unless maintained well and tuned almost constantly, accuracy does suffer...


be safe,

blake

 

[Red 6]

Okay fellas, This one's for ya'll. This is a picture of me in the summer of 84 at the range in Camp Pendleton. One of the line companies from 2 PPCLI came down on exchange for a month and I got attached for medical support. That C2 was sure a lot of fun to shoot/fire. 

 

[KevinB]

Well I noticed its slowed down.

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

Must admit other than the standard slew of CF weapons, I haven't fired much in the way of military hardware so I don't have a great comparison.

I'd have to go with my personal rifle though.  Tikka T3 Lite .308 bolt action.  Smoothest bolt action I have ever felt, synthetic stock, very light rifle but the kick is not half of what you would imagine.  I love it.