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P-8 Poseidon

Range and Endurance are what take a Q400 and the B200 out of the picture.

Those airframes might be great for a little country like Denmark or The Netherlands.

Another thing to consider is the Sono load.  There is no way a Q400 or a B200 is going to be able to carry a full sono load and 8 torps.  You would have to sacrifice something, and there wouldn't be any need for torps if you don't have enough sonos to detect and destroy.  ASW doesn't work so well with EO/IR.

 
No, not everyone can - drop a torpedo I mean. The "laws" that say so are the international laws of conflicts and they do not allow the use of civilian's to carry out combat missions.

Moreover, there is a security issue (and don't tell us that civilians can be "cleared" - not for this): latest ASW tactics and latest ASW equipment are some of the most carefully guarded secrets of any nation. Heck, when sonobuoys, whose existence is now general knowledge, were first introduced in the fifties and early sixties, seamen in Halifax could be charged for merely uttering the word "jezebel" in public, which could be embarrassing for those unfortunate enough to be picked to recite a reading from the old testament at their church hall :) .
 
MarkOttawa said:
PuckChaser: I had no objection to sole-sourcing the Jerc or the C-17.  No conceivable competitors.  The P-8 may be in the same situation, but there is a long time before a formal Aurora replacement process gets going and we'll need to see what the situation is then and what is available (UAVS, satellite, civilian patrol, other aircraft).

It is thought-provoking that the RAF has got entirely out of the maritime patrol business:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/81956/post-993951.html#msg993951

Also interesting that the Air Force is touting the F-35 as being useful for sneaking up on and identifying ships.

Mark
Ottawa

Yes well I think the UK's new white paper plans on riding other peoples coattails and writing strongly worded letters. The haste to scrap the Nimrods is clearly to ensure no one comes along to reverse their decision anytime soon, which more of a long  term political/social engineering goal  than a military/budget one. I wonder what it would have cost to fly them to the US desert for storage?
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
Mark have you ever tracked low flying  fast moving targets at sea?

MarkOttawa I am waiting for an answer or a retraction. Maybe a Verbal is warranted to keep you in your own lanes.

Milnet.Ca Staff
 
Ex-Dragoon: I was not aware that responses were mandatory, but no of course I have not.  If you are referring to a ship's ability to detect an aircraft stealth naturally would make that much more difficult.  On the other hand maritime patrol (it was the F-35's ability to identify vessels in waters around Canada that has been touted, not attacking ships on a combat mission--my apologies for not making that clear) is not normally considered a core fighter/attack mission and one does wonder about aircraft based at Bagotville and Cold Lake carrying it out.

My point was that trying to help sell a program with such a minor point is rather telling, just as when the Victoria class subs are sold as, amongst other things, wonderful for fisheries patrol functions:
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=35ecf942-de27-4a2c-bbd3-d0393f766f01

...
The Victoria Class submarines represent an important strategic asset for Canada. There are currently no plans to replace these submarines," says the note.

"They perform a wide array of naval roles, including fisheries patrols...

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
Ex-Dragoon: I was not aware that responses were mandatory, but no of course I have not.  If you are referring to a ship's ability to detect an aircraft stealth naturally would make that much more difficult.  On the other hand maritime patrol (it was the F-35's ability to identify vessels in waters around Canada that has been touted, not attacking ships on a combat mission--my apologies for not making that clear) is not normally considered a core fighter/attack mission and one does wonder about aircraft based at Bagotville and Cold Lake carrying it out.

My point was that trying to help sell a program with such a minor point is rather telling, just as when the Victoria class subs are sold as, amongst other things, wonderful for fisheries patrol functions:
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=35ecf942-de27-4a2c-bbd3-d0393f766f01

Mark
Ottawa

We use fast air quite a bit in locating and identifying ships. The US Navy has been very helpful in this regard.

You put a lot of "stuff" in these forums with little to back it up case and point above, do you think you are immune to the forum guidelines where you feel you cannot be challenged to back up your claims?

Milnet.Ca Staff
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
MarkOttawa I am waiting for an answer or a retraction. Maybe a Verbal is warranted to keep you in your own lanes.

Milnet.Ca Staff

Oh for God's sake....how about this for a rule?  That "Stay in your lane" gets buried and whomever trots the old bugger out gets a verbal.

It is the height of obnoxiousness for anyone (and this isn't directed just at you Ex-D) to assume they know everything because they've done something.

And if you want to argue that point, let's look at a historical example:  If we were to follow this moronic proposition, then no one who didn't serve on the Maginot Line would've been allowed to suggest that perhaps it wasn't the best idea.

FrenchArmy.fr - Frenchman circa 1938:  "What you've never been to the Maginot Line....then you know nothing....Stay in your lane!"



Matthew.  ::)
 
Oh for God's sake....how about this for a rule?  That "Stay in your lane" gets buried and whomever trots the old bugger out gets a verbal.

It is the height of obnoxiousness for anyone (and this isn't directed just at you Ex-D) to assume they know everything because they've done something.

And if you want to argue that point, let's look at a historical example:  If we were to follow this moronic proposition, then no one who didn't serve on the Maginot Line would've been allowed to suggest that perhaps it wasn't the best idea.

FrenchArmy.fr - Frenchman circa 1938:  "What you've never been to the Maginot Line....then you know nothing....Stay in your lane!"



Matthew. 

Its really funny Matt how you only tend to comment when I am trying to enforce the rules and guidelines of this site. ::)
 
Ex-Dragoon:

We use fast air quite a bit in locating and identifying ships. The US Navy has been very helpful in this regard.

A role one might well expect from naval aviation but not a role one would think core for terrestrial air force fighters.  I have also heard it said the F-35's advanced ISR capabilities will make it very useful for search and rescue missions in Canada.  Just the reason to buy a certain type of fighter.

By the way, I've never seen the USN, or any other navy, use fisheries work as a rationale for their submarines.  Our governments--both stripes--prefer to justify military equipment to the Canadian public in the least combat-related way possible.  Almost as if they are embarrassed to admit that combat is the key point of most military equipment.  And personnel.

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
A role one might well expect from naval aviation but not a role one would think core for terrestrial air force fighters. 

Sorry, but you've got to be kidding if you're going to make an assertion that any of our manned aircraft are not under the purvey of the AIR FORCE, and NOT the Navy or the Army.

I suppose then, according to your above, that a maritime patrol aircraft like the Aurora would never be used for land mapping purposes in Afghanistan or to strike land targets while their platform is offshore?

You never cease to amaze me with your grade school analysis of things.
 
WingsofFury:

Please, I do know which service operates our aircraft.  And that they are used from time to time in ways not central to their main roles (or indeed envisaged when acquired, the Aurora's Afghan employment being indeed a good case in point--also the gunship use of Griffons).  I was referring, regarding fighters, to this by Ex-Dragoon in terms of core service missions:

We use fast air quite a bit in locating and identifying ships. The US Navy has been very helpful in this regard.

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
Ex-Dragoon:

A role one might well expect from naval aviation but not a role one would think core for terrestrial air force fighters.  I have also heard it said the F-35's advanced ISR capabilities will make it very useful for search and rescue missions in Canada.  Just the reason to buy a certain type of fighter.

By the way, I've never seen the USN, or any other navy, use fisheries work as a rationale for their submarines.  Our governments--both stripes--prefer to justify military equipment to the Canadian public in the least combat-related way possible.  Almost as if they are embarrassed to admit that combat is the key point of most military equipment.  And personnel.

Mark
Ottawa

Mark don't confuse the issue....nowhere have I mentioned submarines nor was referring to fisheries...I have been referring to fixed winged assets all along as you know perfectly well...and their ability to find and locate ships as well as their ability to come up undetected if they so chose.
 
Ex-Dragoon:  And I have been referring to how governments try to sell equipment acquisitions by highlighting peripheral roles and capabilities.

Mark
Ottawa
 
Then pray tell why you would use such an assinine phrasing of words as "A role one might well expect from naval aviation but not a role one would think core for terrestrial air force fighters" when you full well know and understand that there is no such thing as a naval aviation component to our navy in any way shape or form?

By your wording you make it sound like all fighters that are land based solely operate over terra firma, a gross inaccuracy and, in my opinion, showing a complete and utter failure of just what roles "fighter" jets play in this country.
 
MarkOttawa said:
Ex-Dragoon:  And I have been referring to how governments try to sell equipment acquisitions by highlighting peripheral roles and capabilities.

Mark
Ottawa

Those peripheral roles and capabilities are pretty important for naval commanders the world over...try not to be so dismissive of them.
 
MarkOttawa said:
Ex-Dragoon:  And I have been referring to how governments try to sell equipment acquisitions by highlighting peripheral roles and capabilities.

Tell me why it's a peripheral role and capability - is it because it doesn't appear in the news everyday?

It would be almost as ludacris as making the claim that the sole purvy of "fighter" jets is to intercept Bears over the Arctic.
 
WingsofFury:  So a major/major mission for our fighters is to identify vessels off Canadian shores in peacetime? 

..."A role one might well expect from naval aviation but not a role one would think core for terrestrial air force fighters" when you full well know and understand that there is no such thing as a naval aviation component to our navy in any way shape or form?

By your wording you make it sound like all fighters that are land based solely operate over terra firma, a gross inaccuracy and, in my opinion, showing a complete and utter failure of just what roles "fighter" jets play in this country.

The key word is "core" for our Air Force; from Ex-Dragoon I drew the (perhaps inaccurate) inference that USN fast air in fact did much of the ship identification for us, when needed to be done by fighters, in waters off Canada.  Clearly ship identification generally is a much more central role for USN fighters than for our Air Force ones--does anyone know how often our Hornets are actually employed doing this?  Not that ours do not fly over water (Cathay Pacific:
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/810111--bomb-threat-forces-fighter-jets-to-escort-plane-to-vancouver
First Gulf War:
http://www.richthistle.com/aviation-articles-othermenu-133/74-cf-18-hornets-in-the-gulf-war ).

The point is that the ability of the F-35 to use its stealth in a peacetime maritime patrol role in waters off Canada does not seem to me an important factor to use when justifying its acquisition.  Along with SAR capability.

Other than fighters what other of our aircraft intercept Bears?

Ex-Dragoon:

Those peripheral roles and capabilities are pretty important for naval commanders the world over...try not to be so dismissive of them.

Fighters identifying vessels in waters off Canada in peacetime, and subs doing fisheries work?  To repeat.

I'm done.

Mark
Ottawa
 
We use fast air quite a bit in locating and identifying ships. The US Navy has been very helpful in this regard.

Can you point out just how relevant LO is in locating and identifying ships with aircraft?
 
I would like to see the CP-140's replaced with:

8 x P-8

6 x RQ-4

And so, in accordance with site guidelines (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/44917.0.html),

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Tasks and roles:
Would be broadly similar to those carried out by the CP-140s, but there would be a division of taskings into those which require 'longer-endurance-and-more-surveilance' versus 'shorter-endurance-and-more-killing'. In the process we would gain a platform capable of longer-endurance for those missions which require it, and a seperate platform which should be more survivable, and hopefully more effective at killing bad guys (in many if not most scenarios).

Aircraft maintenance cycle:
Maintenance costs tend to be based largely around 2 factors, 1) how much airplane (mass) are you trying to fly? And 2) how many engines are you using?

CP-140
18 x 77,000lbs = 1,386,000lbs
18 x 4 engines = 72 engines

P-8 + RQ-4
9 x 138,000lbs + 6 x 8,400lbs = 1,292,000 lbs
9 x 2 engines + 6 x 1 engine =  24 engines

The new fleet would have less airplane, and fewer engines. This is a strong predictor of lower maintenance costs.

Aircrew training requirements:
CP-140        18 x 12 crew = 216 crew

P-8 + RQ-4    9x 9 crew + 6 X 12 'crew' = 153 crew

Obviously these numbers are only for proportional comparison of crew requirements. Difficulties present themselves when counting just how many mission crew an RQ-4 has (different way of doign business entirely) so to be conservative I simply gave it the same number as a CP-140. The long and the short of it is that this new fleet should require fewer crew.

Number of Airframes Required:
We can all pretend that this is a consideration, but it isn't. Four C-17s does not meed Canada's strategic lift requirements. But we needed a heavy lift capability, the C-17 was the only viable option, and 4 airframes is what we could afford within the budget allowed. Similarly, Canada needs to be able to kill submarines. There's a VERY short list of planes to do that. We also need to be able to maintain airborne surveillance over all 3 oceans, even if there's shooting going on. I feel that we need more than the 9 + 6 airframes proposed (that's 2 x P-8s per ocean, with one down for maintenance). But we can't afford what's required, so I propose what I think we can afford.

Expected lifespan of "new" airframes, compared to expectation of available manufacturer and principal nation support:
Well, I don't expect the B-737 to go the way of the dodo any time soon. And the RQ-4 is a brand-new aircraft, entering service with the largest air force in the world, our closest neighbor and ally, and a number of our overseas allies as well. One is supported by the world's largest commerical aircraft manufacturer, and the other is a marquee product supported by the world's 4th largest defence company.

Requirements and costs to retrain and retool all required maintenance facilities and maintainers.
The B-737 is one of the most ubiquitously supported aircraft in the world. Almost everything not directly related to the combat systems is available commercial off-the-shelf. Virtually every heavy maintenance outfit in the western world has the required equipment and expertise to maintain it. The RQ-4 is quite a small aircraft, single-engined, and the airframe maintenance requirements are likely to be drawfed by those of either the P-8 or CP-140.

The costs of the retraining and re-tooling for the mission systems is obviously difficult to calculate, with not much public domain information. However, I expect it would be comparable to the costs incurred by re-equipping with any new mission systems, inculding those which would be involved in CP-140 upgrades.

The salient question here would be the decision whether to use existing ground stations in the USA for the RQ-4s, or to build such facilities in Canada. US facilities would be the cheap option, but Canadian facilities would likely be politically feasable. They could be used to buy votes, since they can be built in Canada, and located anywhere.

Infrastructure costs to support new aircraft in all Wing locations:
a) Both the RQ-4 and P-8 have a wider wing-span than the CP-140 (35.4m and 37.6m, vs 30.4m). Not knowing the details of what hanger/carwash facilities exist at various CFBs, I couldn't say whether this is a factor or not. But dollars to doughnuts says that any facilites where it is a problem are likely to be ancient facilites that will have to be replaced regardless.

b) Two maintenance programmes will have to be put in place of a single one, both for airframes and mission systems. I suspect this will be largely offset by the factors listed above (fewer airframes, fewer engines, less mass of airplane flying, commonality with the entire world's airline fleet).

c) ground stations for the RQ-4 would be a major question mark. But this could be done on the cheap, by using US facilities, or on the politically expedient, by having Canadian contractors build them in a contested riding in Quebec.

One major consideration that didn't fit into the template above:
RQ-4s are a real darn handy airplane. There would probably be lots of demand for them from fisheries, Environment Canada, Transport Canada, et al. Similar long-endurance airframes have been used commercially by the communications sector as temporary repeater stations or cell towers. I think it would be do-able to have maybe 2 or 3 of them as full-time CF assets, while the other 3-4 airframes would be federal gov assets, used by the above agencies on their own dime, or leased to commercial entities. Control of them would resort back the CF in times of national emergency. Whether they were operated by CF or civilian crews would be of less significance, as long as other people are footing the bills.
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That's already more than I wanted to write, but I just thought I'd comply with the "Let's Buy These Aircraft" sticky, which was put there for just such an occasion.
 
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