Our North - SSE Policy Update Megathread

[Halifax Tar]

Military equipment and materiel buys are all facing delays due to the world situation. Waiting for a shooting war in Europe before investing drives up cost and increases timelines - so that's not an immediate expenditure area, whether talking bullets, bombers or bosun training.

Base infra and military housing are important areas to invest, but in many areas the construction industry is already tapped out - a lack of skilled trades is creating delays and driving up costs. For some CAF construction, major companies are flying in teams because the local economy lacks a sufficiently large skilled workforce to do all the things DND/CAF want. (ADM IE looks at their overall portfolio demand to try to not overwhelm areas as a measure to prevent that, but can't always be successful).

So yes - there is lots of investment necessary, but capacity to execute (both internal and external to DND) are limiting factors.

re: Pay: Junior officers are already well (perhaps over) paid: A Reg F Capt IPC 2 is already grossing over $100K annually, before any allowances. Across the board increases may not be necessary, but instead focused on NCMs.

To me the pay problem for NCMs is at the book ends. The new folks aren't getting enough and the PO1/WOs and up aren't being remunerated for their responsibility and efforts.

 

[dapaterson]

To me the pay problem for NCMs is at the book ends. The new folks aren't getting enough and the PO1/WOs and up aren't being remunerated for their responsibility and efforts.

There is a need for overall pay simplification (too many allowances etc that drive complexity and sometimes create perverse incentives, against long term institutional needs); that said, we are seeing a slow movement away from the team approach in pay and more bespoke pay scales (SOF & SAR are the most recent examples).

 

[Rifleman62]

Base infra and military housing are important areas to invest, but in many areas the construction industry is already tapped out - a lack of skilled trades is creating delays and driving up costs.

Trudeau plans to build almost 4 million homes by 2031.

 

[Halifax Tar]

There is a need for overall pay simplification (too many allowances etc that drive complexity and sometimes create perverse incentives, against long term institutional needs); that said, we are seeing a slow movement away from the team approach in pay and more bespoke pay scales (SOF & SAR are the most recent examples).

Agreed on the too many allowances.

There are also people in receipt of allowances who shouldn't be.

 

[QV]

Trudeau plans to build almost 4 million homes by 2031.

Wow. If they start today that is about 65 new homes every hour until 2031. Considering all other government processes, this seems totally doable. Bravo!

 

[dapaterson]

Agreed on the too many allowances.

There are also people in receipt of allowances who shouldn't be.

Which is a leadership / management issue.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It’s about 3 years too late to start immediate orders.

Most Tank lines have 5+ year waits — unless you want some of the 3,500+ older M1 Abram’s tanks we have mothballed.

IFV’s are in the nearly the same boat - with 2 year plus delivery times.

Artillery and Rocket systems are also not going to magically be available, nor at ATGM’s etc.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine changed that calculus for decades - on top of the COVID related (real and imagined) supply chain issues.

At this point one really needs to make a long term investment in Defence Infrastructure in Canada if one wants new equipment in the next decade.

Which would also require incentives to industry, including tax breaks to Defense Multinationals to create Canada production lines.

Making a deal with the South Koreans would help there. They seem highly flexible in their manufacturing arrangements. We could get K9's make in SK, but assembled here at an existing facility. Use that deal to expand the facility so you can produce other equipment. I would also buy the rights to build M119's guns. They appears to be a demand for them and likley they will be within our capabilities to build, particularly the barrel production. DND guarantees a buy of 200 and I suspect we could sell that many at least to other countries.

 

[Quirky]

If you look at CAF pay along with the benefits added on in a vacuum, it's extremely generous and I don't see it being an issue. The problem arises when the CAF upends you and your family into a higher CoL area with one less source of income. It's completely self-inflicted.

 

[CBH99]

Making a deal with the South Koreans would help there. They seem highly flexible in their manufacturing arrangements. We could get K9's make in SK, but assembled here at an existing facility. Use that deal to expand the facility so you can produce other equipment. I would also buy the rights to build M119's guns. They appears to be a demand for them and likley they will be within our capabilities to build, particularly the barrel production. DND guarantees a buy of 200 and I suspect we could sell that many at least to other countries.

That's a good idea. And even though it makes perfect sense, I actually think the concept itself would be lost on our current lot
There is absolutely something to be said for South Korean military kit & pricing, and speed if delivery. Partnering with them makes sense.

US to start mass production of new Booker combat vehicles – Defence Blog

defence-blog.com

I know I'll probably get roasted for this being a bad idea, but the more I read about the new M10 "not a tank" light tank, the more it seems like it might not be a bad tank for us...

More affordable, lighter than a Leo or M1, could maybe partner up with Canadian industry for final assembly or using Canadian systems, and would make us a more helpful ally for the US.

(Maybe? Might be a stupid idea for a whole host of reasons...we could donate all the Leo 2's to Ukraine & buy 120 Bookers? I know we have much higher and more urgent priorities than replacing the Leo 2 fleet right away, just spitballing random ideas...I think I like the idea of SK K9's more)

 

[KevinB]

That's a good idea. And even though it makes perfect sense, I actually think the concept itself would be lost on our current lot
There is absolutely something to be said for South Korean military kit & pricing, and speed if delivery. Partnering with them makes sense.

US to start mass production of new Booker combat vehicles – Defence Blog

defence-blog.com

I know I'll probably get roasted for this being a bad idea, but the more I read about the new M10 "not a tank" light tank, the more it seems like it might not be a bad tank for us...

More affordable, lighter than a Leo or M1, could maybe partner up with Canadian industry for final assembly or using Canadian systems, and would make us a more helpful ally for the US.

(Maybe? Might be a stupid idea for a whole host of reasons...we could donate all the Leo 2's to Ukraine & buy 120 Bookers? I know we have much higher and more urgent priorities than replacing the Leo 2 fleet right away, just spitballing random ideas...I think I like the idea of SK K9's more)

Absolutely no. The Booker is another ‘Cougar’. It’s a DFS vehicle that has somewhat palatable down here due to the similarities to the Abram’s FCS.

It’s not a tank for being a tank - and shouldn’t be viewed as such. Sure it’s lighter - but the 105mm gun and armor aren’t up for fighting an anti armor battle. It would be just another method of ensuring the CA isn’t setup for LSCO’s.

If Canada went to the GDLS XM-30 vehicle as a IFV, then I could see the M-10 being used as a DFS system, (as it’s a common chassis) for those battalions equipped with the OMFV, but one would still want a true MBT to operate with.


But I’d rather have GDLS-C make a M1A3, and either RM Canada or BAE make a tracked IFV.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Absolutely no. The Booker is another ‘Cougar’.

 

[brihard]

If you look at CAF pay along with the benefits added on in a vacuum, it's extremely generous and I don't see it being an issue. The problem arises when the CAF upends you and your family into a higher CoL area with one less source of income. It's completely self-inflicted.

Yup. Very few other employers have to contend with this. And spousal employment options may be limited at some bases. The navy probably has it the best in that respect, but on the flip side they also have Esquimault CoL. versus major army options like Gagetown, Pet, or Shilo that just don’t have a major urban centre. Fine if a spouse is a nurse or something, but a lot of professional doors are closed.

 

[Kirkhill]

Absolutely no. The Booker is another ‘Cougar’. It’s a DFS vehicle that has somewhat palatable down here due to the similarities to the Abram’s FCS.

It’s not a tank for being a tank - and shouldn’t be viewed as such. Sure it’s lighter - but the 105mm gun and armor aren’t up for fighting an anti armor battle. It would be just another method of ensuring the CA isn’t setup for LSCO’s.

If Canada went to the GDLS XM-30 vehicle as a IFV, then I could see the M-10 being used as a DFS system, (as it’s a common chassis) for those battalions equipped with the OMFV, but one would still want a true MBT to operate with.


But I’d rather have GDLS-C make a M1A3, and either RM Canada or BAE make a tracked IFV.

Why are you still wanting to fight by Queensbury rules and match tank for tank?

I want to match drones and missiles to tanks and tanks to infantry.

Drones kill tanks, tanks kill infantry, infantry kills drones.

 

[dapaterson]

Esquimalt CoL however also comes with Esquimalt QoL.

 

[childs56]

To me the pay problem for NCMs is at the book ends. The new folks aren't getting enough and the PO1/WOs and up aren't being remunerated for their responsibility and efforts.

Looking at the current pay scale of NCMs it isn't all that bad. Pte starts at $3614 then $4413 and ends up at $5304. That's a pretty decent starting wage.
Cpl wage starting at $6069 an topping out at $6493, Again not bad wages. (I am topped out at the Cpls base wage where I work, I work for the government)
Can you make more elsewhere, yup, you can make much less for more work. But things are also different elsewhere

 

[Quirky]

Fine if a spouse is a nurse or something, but a lot of professional doors are closed.

My wife is a RN, despite the critical shortages in hospitals, positions aren’t all that easy to get. Not to mention the need to purchase a new provincial license and the loss of seniority when moving. They might find a part-time position but they’re starting over again.

 

[KevinB]

Why are you still wanting to fight by Queensbury rules and match tank for tank?

I want to match drones and missiles to tanks and tanks to infantry.

Drones kill tanks, tanks kill infantry, infantry kills drones.

I want MBT's, TIFV's TC-UAS, SPA, MSHORAD, MRAD etc.

Sometimes you need to assault things - and MBT's and T-IFV's do that a lot better than soldiers crossing no mans land...

 

[dapaterson]

Sometimes you need to assault things - and MBT's and T-IFV's do that a lot better than soldiers crossing no mans land...

You'll never be a Russian general if you keep thinking like that.

 

[markppcli]

That's a good idea. And even though it makes perfect sense, I actually think the concept itself would be lost on our current lot
There is absolutely something to be said for South Korean military kit & pricing, and speed if delivery. Partnering with them makes sense.

US to start mass production of new Booker combat vehicles – Defence Blog

defence-blog.com

I know I'll probably get roasted for this being a bad idea, but the more I read about the new M10 "not a tank" light tank, the more it seems like it might not be a bad tank for us...

More affordable, lighter than a Leo or M1, could maybe partner up with Canadian industry for final assembly or using Canadian systems, and would make us a more helpful ally for the US.

(Maybe? Might be a stupid idea for a whole host of reasons...we could donate all the Leo 2's to Ukraine & buy 120 Bookers? I know we have much higher and more urgent priorities than replacing the Leo 2 fleet right away, just spitballing random ideas...I think I like the idea of SK K9's more)

This take is precisely the problem with the Booker.

It’s not a tank.

Was not designed to be a tank.

Does not fulfil the role of a tank in any way shape or form.

Yet it looks like a tank, and therefore will be employed as a tank.

Why are you still wanting to fight by Queensbury rules and match tank for tank?

He isn’t, but the tank still has to be able to withstand substantial punishment though, up to and including atgm strikes. The Ukrainian, and Russian, propaganda machine of drone footage presents as a skewed one shot one kill, all hail the mighty drone / atgm view. It’s simply not the case and these strikes are not a replacement for tanks.

I want to match drones and missiles to tanks and tanks to infantry.

Unfortunately the enemy tends to get in the way of these exquisite plans

Drones kill tanks, tanks kill infantry, infantry kills drones.

Those easy line ups only work in very simple children’s games.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Keep in mind that in WWII, the US built some very capable heavy tanks, but choose to keep sending Sherman tanks. The reason was logistics. Eventually some US heavies made it to Europe, mainly to test the support infrastructure.

There are some very good reasons to have a light tank like the Booker and that revolves around logistics, terrain and infrastructure. There are a lot of places that would not allow a tank as heavy as the M1 to operate as the roads and bridges would collapse. so a light tank that can support the infantry there, is worth its weight in gold. The US can easily sustain some light tank battalions and it's likley these will sell as exports to replace the remaining CRVT's and other older light tank fleets out there.