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On Killing

sapper332

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Lt Col Dave Grossman has hit the nail on the head. For those of who who want to understand why we kill - or why we have an inherent aversion to killing within our own species - this is the book for you!

  For those who have read it... what do you think? Where do you see yourself with respect to how you would react?
 
I think Grossman's book comes short in many respects.   I believe that there is an ingrained resistance to killing, but that it is a societal process and not a biological one.   If history has taught us anything, it is that when the social boundaries against it are removed, man has no problem butchering, raping, murdering, and looting his way across the landscape.   Violence is an instinctive and very powerful survival mechanism.

Read Michael Ghiglieri's The Dark Side of Man when you read Grossman, it will add a different approach and some perspective that might be a bit different than what Grossman has to say.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0738203157/qid=1103769794/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/103-5233454-0859833?v=glance&s=books

As well, Grossman has released a "follow-up" of sorts to On Killing - it is called On Combat and I assume it moves to look at some of the human processes involved in combat (as opposed to the actual act of killing).   I haven't read it yet, but am going to make the effort due to the interesting work coming out of the notion of "killology".

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964920514/qid=1103769918/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-5233454-0859833

Cheers,
Infanteer
 
Well I like Grossmans work - his workshops shoudl be mandatory for all service personnel
 
I had rather mixed feelings on the book. He made some good points when he talked about death and killing in relation to pop culture and ways in which soldiers' training is designed to overcome the aversion from killing, but I found his arguments about the reluctance to kill a bit too forced. What really stood out was his use of overloaded muskets found on civil war battlefields as evidence of this. I found this contradicted his arguments about crew-served weapons lowering the resistance to killing because of a diffusion in responsibility. Civil war soldiers still fired from closed ranks and should therefore should have felt the same absolution he argues was felt in a pike square, what he considers to be the first crew-served weapon. That's just one example that I still stands out, but overall it's probably a worthwhile read on a subject that hasn't got much attention. I just didn't think he made the most solid case for a definite human aversion to killing.
 
Here we go again...

I think the issue with the pike square is that it was visible if you lowered your pike or not...
  With the musket reload issue with many firing around you it was possible to go through the drills and pretend you fired...
 
With the musket reload issue with many firing around you it was possible to go through the drills and pretend you fired...

Or deliberately shoot over the enemy's head...
 
I flipped back through the book to make sure I remembered things correctly, and you're right about "mutual surveillance" being one of the force that made men in a phalanx lower their spears and soldiers in ranks keep loading their muskets. But the main idea of that chapter is the group anonimity crew served weapons provide, specifically that "the closely packed phalanx provided a high degree of mob anonimity". This does not match his example of civil war muskets as it logically should.

It's a pretty small, trivial point but it certainly has stuck out in my mind and I think shows that despite his outstanding research, Grossman is a little forceful trying to make things fit. It's a good book, but certainly not great.
 
It's not so much of the "mutual surveillance" during the battle that actually bothers me about Grossman's theory (infact, that makes alot of sense - peer pressure is a big factor) but the events after the battle that seem to countermand the notion that man has a natural aversion to killing.

For most of history, after the victorious army has routed the enemy, they've proceeded to butcher retreating forces (usually where most casualties come from), rape and slaughter any undefended populace, and generally loot and pillage their way through any poor society caught in the way.   How is it that Grossman's human soldier (that possesses such a resistance to killing) must be pressed into battle and psychologically pressured into killing his fellow man, and then, when victorious, suddenly becomes capable of executing captured enemies, sticking their heads on pikes and putting civilian populations to the sword.

History is chock full of these events.   The Assyrian war machine, victorious Greeks (Read Euripides The Trojan Woman, the original anti-war play), Tamerlane's mountains of skulls, the marauding armies of the Thirty Years War, savage butchery on the American plains between the US Army and Native groups, and the march of the Soviet Army into Germany in 1945.

Why do we have things like the Laws of Land Warfare and the Geneva Conventions, when Grossman's human would willingly resort to such measures due to an innate resistance to killing?   Dr Jonathan Shay identifies rage as a key component in the undoing of character, an essential characteristic of all the Vietnam vets with PTSD that he treats.   I can't see rage and the combat berserker (See Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character) fitting into Grossman's model of 98% of humans possessing innate resistance to killing and 2% cool-headed, cold-blooded killers - rather, a "Freudian" conflict between the instinctive, animal-like lower brain and the rational, civilized upper brain seem to be competing when the psychological and physical effects of combat crash into the human fighter.

This is why I have never been fully supportive of Grossman's theory and eagerly took on to some of the ideas that Ghiglieri provides.   I still believe that On Killing is very important for identifying factors of motivation - things like the Shalit and Milgram factors.   As well, I agree with Grossman when he states that there exists some sort of aversion to killing; SLA Marshall's work, although flawed, points to conclusions that are too profound to ignore.   However, I think Grossman has it backwards - man does not have a natural aversion to killing which is overcome through social factors (training); rather man is instinctively a very proficient killing machine and society and culture have been formed to act as social, artificial barriers which lead to the non-firer.   In cultures where social cohesion is strong and violence is fundamentally frowned upon, the barrier is much more stronger - hence why the non-firer becomes more obvious in our societies.

However, history seems too quick to prove that once these key social barriers are broken down, the Dark Side of Man is all too eager to take over - turning man into one of the most ruthless killing machines that nature has yet to turn out.

Infanteer
 
I feel that Infanteer has some very lucid observations in a very cloudy topic.  Bravo! once again my educated friend.

I have read Grossman's works and continue to refer back to them from time to time.  For those wishing some free insight check out this website:

http://www.killology.com/presentations.htm

I'm not the most educated soldier in the trace, but sure as shit classical and operant conditioning factor into the training process.  Sorry Dave, but probably falls into the 'No shit Sherlock' category.

As far as 'the dark side' is concerned - well suffice to say that from personal experience nature didn't provide me with an aversion to violence - quite the opposite really.  It took a lot - A LOT - of time, maturity, martial arts, military, and social conditioning to push my propensity for violence into the ready bin.

WTF is he using words like specicidal for anyway?  Try saying that 10 times fast  ;D 

Don't get me wrong - I respect his work.  The fact that he teamed up with Bruce K. Siddle, the founder of PPCT/DT shows that he is a forward thinker.  He has also dedicated a lot of time to the profession of arms and law enforcement.  Although I haven't had the pleasure, I have several civilian and military friends that have attended his presentations - a very engaging speaker by all accounts.  He has personally helped a lot of victims in their time of need after violent acts.  Let's face it, he's a shrink and a former grunt - I'm a just a grunt.  Who the hell am I to question his work.

However, like others have stated, read his work with an open mind cuz there is always more than one school of thought.



 
I wonder how easy it is, given one's emotional state and the noise and smoke of a battalion volley, to consciously know whether one's musket has fired or misfired.  Has anyone looked into the simple explanation that people loaded an unfired musket because they didn't realize they had not fired?

Some investigations of which I read a while back reported that police officers involved in shootouts sometimes were unaware they had instinctively reloaded, and some thought they had fired substantially fewer rounds than in fact were discharged.  If this is true (not just some urban legend), I would tend to look for other explanations than "unwillingness to kill".
 
There are numerous cases of civil war muskets and the like being found with four or five loads, one on top of the other.
 
IICR the "record" was 15 reloads jammed onto of each other... Kind of hard to do by accident.

Interesting as well are the studies on accuracy and casualties - as some battles have gone on much longer than reasonable and tons of survivors more thna there shoudl have been.

I think the theory is that is much easier to kill people in a route for you would not be looking at them as well can think less of them for breaking and running (my logic for the disparity).

I think Infanteer is bang on with "society and culture have been formed to act as social, artificial barriers which lead to the non-firer" - However I think that in "civilised" society is is such a second nature issue that it has found its way into Grossman as a natural state.   If there are any flaw with Grossman it would be that issue that he has concentrated to much on Western Civilization rather than the human race.

USSOC is big into Grossman BTW -





 
From the Philadelphia NEws - http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/10297778.htm?1c

Soldiers of the 1st Infantry Div in Fallujah think kililng ain't so cool
 
  On the subject of killing I think that it comes down to the necessity to sevive any given situation if at all possible but some people go to extremes and use thier aggretion negatively against common people . I feel that if you have ever hunted animals and were able to pull the trigger to kill an animal then if some one was going to kill you that would not be a problem for that is what the person is and he or they have reduced themselves to the loest status of a human being .
 
I read On Killing in 1998 on the recommendation of the Chaplain at the US Armor School.  He was giving us a lecture on the morale of combat troops and mentioned this book.  This fellow was as much a soldier as a chaplain and an outstanding speaker.  The Fort Knox PX is blessed with an outstanding bookstore and I bought the book that afternoon.  I enjoyed the book and since it was quite popular with the other students (who were similarily inspired to get it) I was able to have some good discussions.

I would strongly recommend On Killing despite any issues with specific arguments because it reveals that an army is not a "system of systems" but rather a group of people who are charged with killing and perhaps being killed.  These are things that do not necessarily come naturally in our civil society (the cause of which I will leave alone for now).  We tend to forget this in peacetime and it rarely if ever comes into our simulations and exercises. 

Cheers,

2B
 
Brad Sallows said:
I wonder how easy it is, given one's emotional state and the noise and smoke of a battalion volley, to consciously know whether one's musket has fired or misfired.   Has anyone looked into the simple explanation that people loaded an unfired musket because they didn't realize they had not fired?

Having never fired a firearm (the closest I've gone was firing an air rifle), and never having seen anything close to combat, I might be completely wrong, BUT... Even with the noise and smoke, wouldn't the shooter feel the recoil when shooting a musket? Like you say in the rest of your post, police officers sometimes reload without noticing, but I find it a bit hard to believe that one would be so stressed (or whichever adjective is the right one) as to not even feel that. I've read about soldiers getting shot and not knowing if/where they've been hit, so that might be the same principle, but anyways.. Someone care to enlighten me?
 
The c7 for instance, when you fire a round through the weapon, the gas expelled from the contents of the round igniting, sending it out the barrell, are funnelled back into the weapon forcing the bolt to move and pick up another round out of the magazine automatically.

If a round is misfired,the bolt would simply move forward as per normal, but would stop there, and it would 'feell' the same as a jam.At which point the soldier does his Immediate Action drills to remedy to stoppage.

(if anyone else would care to go into greater detail on the inner workings of a C7 rifle, be my guest )

Basically it just goes click... in my experince, when you have a dud round or a jam or some kind of malfunction, regardless, and the round doesnt go off, its fairly obvious.Whether that sense is decreased during the anxiety of combat, I have no idea, but it being enough so that a soldier wouldnt realize the round didnt fire, I doubt it.

Plus, theres the loud Bang noise, and the recoil of the weapon is enough that if it suddenly disappeared , you would notice something is wrong =p
 
I think the post mentioned is bringing up the fact that the adrenal overload from combat may be so intense for some that they would fail to notice that they're not even firing.  Judging from other things I've read of people doing under fire, it certainly is plausible.
 
>IICR the "record" was 15 reloads jammed onto of each other... Kind of hard to do by accident.

Maybe he was reluctant to pull on another human being, or maybe he was the battalion training aid and consistently forgot a critical step in the procedure or was too slow to complete loading when the orders to level and fire were given.  For example, forget or run out of time to put on a percussion cap - one of the last steps in the loading sequence IIRC - and not much happens.
 
Not sure if this has any relevance, but being in the hunting and fishing business, you hear lots of funny things related to "buck fever" and similar adrenaline-pumping situations. I especially hear these types of stories in Hunters' Ed classes. I have heard several instances where an excited hunter, toting a lever action rifle - "levered" every single cartridge out of their rifle (without firing a single one) upon seeing the buck of a lifetime. Another one that stands out is a hunter friend, who in a panic, loaded a Vicks Inhaler into their break-action shotgun, in the heat of the moment. Granted, these individuals didn't have the benefits of hours of "drills", but on the other hand, faltered in situations that were far less than "life or death"....
 
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