Ok...call me crazy...a world power??

[toms3]

First...I love my country and I love being in the forces. So I find it very frustrating to see the state the CF. Obviously you can see its affect on our moral in general. I just don‘t get it. I don‘t understand how they can continue to cut and cut. I have had the opportunity to work with US and UK troop and from my experience I believe that Canada has (man for man) the best, most professional soldiers out of the 3 countries. But we lack the tools and funding. I know..I know, we have heard this all before.

I feel Canada could be a world power. Due to our population, not like a US, China or Russia (just to name a few)...but in a way that people would think twice before messing with us and that we could sustain/maintain our commitments around the world with out putting stresses on our resources. If, (lets just imagine for a second), that the US wanted our Water or other resource...there is nothing stopping them....(other than the international community). Find a book called Exxoneration by Richard Romer...its a story that talk about this scenario. With tanks centrally located within the country (all 118) they will be of no use...so we would be no more than a small hornet buzzing around their head.

Here is a possible solution. Promote and Develop a Canadian defence industry. Design a Canadian replacement for the Leo, develop our own Aircraft and so on. I realize this would be a long-term project but Canada has the technology and it would in the end create Canadian Jobs. Spend Canadian dollars in Canada.

There are countries out there that are very similar to us, but have a bigger punch (Australia).

Frustrated.

 

[Harry]

Don‘t take this wrong, but your funny.

We a major player in the arms industry, let alone rebuild our image as a world power contender.

How old are you?

We have had our kick at the can so to speak and for whatever reason (and I am not getting into Socio-Economics on this forum) can‘t do it.

We have had major aircraft producers try the military aircraft thing. We have had ship builders to the maritime thing and we have had lots of factories pump out land equipment. The current LAV is doing well, but if the parent company wakes up one day and decides they can do it cheaper elsewhere or in some American city that has lost a major auto plant, NEXT.

Canada with our weak dollar would seem like a natural, well not really, our man hour costs are outrageous.

Made in Canada, why? To create jobs, why? Most of these projects are stale dated and create false economies.

We should be spending a little more on defence, but as I have reiterated time and again, buying of the shelf like the Finns.

R&D on a tank and then maybe buying a hundred or two, with no guarantees of outside sales, quit the gamble. Just ask the people who thought they could build a plant in St. Jean for Air Defence systems and sell them world wide. The Canadian Government fronted it and we got stuck with the tab for another Made in Canada White Elephant. By the way, research how many units actually rolled off the line and do a cost analysis

 

[rolandstrong]

I hear what you are saying here Digger, and there are some countries that have used this scenario and built up a decent military (i.e. South Africa in the 1970‘s). But I think Harry is right here. There is some excellent off the shelf equipment out there, and to combine that with your accurate mention of our great soldiers, we could certainly field a decent military force.

Remember to that we are a G-8 nation, and from an international perspective we are a world power...one of the top 8, technically. Perhaps a small growth sector in the arms business with sustainable R & D funding coming from the Canadian goverment over a number of decades may produce something, but is this really going to happen? (i.e. the Arrow). The canadian public, as a whole, has not historically supported these measures, so I don‘t see how they would start now. Personally I think it will be a while, or a significant Canadian threat, to sway public opinion to support a government that will initiate something like that.

:evil:

 

[Linc]

No, we dont need to be producing things like our own tanks, nor do we need to be strategicly deploying our forces within our own borders, the US is not going to invade us.

I did want to point out that I am however an advocate of made-in-canada procurement. True that the relatively small size of even doubled CF would make the development of big-ticket items like Canada-only fighter jets cost prohibitive, Canada can still participate in multi-national projects like the Eryx missile system and even the Joint Strike Fighter, which would allow our industry to benefit from technological advances while making an affordable contribution. Furthermore, where possible, Canadian industry can license-produce foreign equipment.

Not only does this help create jobs in Canada but it helps commerical industry in Canada compete worldwide. In the December 2000 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology , the magazine analyses Canada‘s commercial aerospace industry, and states that it suffers from "no real defence industrial base," which allow companies to develop cutting edge technologies that have spin-offs to the commercial sector and therefore make those industry more competitive. Also, military contracts are an extra and stable source of commercial revenue during periods of economic uncertainty or decline, when regular commercial business has dropped off. For example, Bombardier has had a tough time since 9/11 because the commercial aircraft industry has essentially ground to a stand-still, and few companies are looking to purchase planes. However Boeing is doing much better because military procurements from its defence division generally remain stable or in this case, have actually increased since 9/11.

The main reason for the failure of the ADATS program was the collapse of the Soviet Union, which negated the need for low level air defence. As long as the guys in Ottawa use their heads and try to forsee the needs of the defence community, domestic military production can be both affordable and beneficial to Canada.

 

[toms3]

Linc, it was somewhat tongue in cheek regarding the invasion of Canada by the US, however, who pridicted 4 planes would be used as bombs. That proved that you can‘t say "never" about anything anymore.

Ok...Harry...I am old and I am glad you find my comments amusing. I know there have been problems in the past with home grown defence industries and I concied...it might not work because history has shown it won‘t. But it still does not take away the frustration of a military with such potential....its like we have great bullets but no gun to fire them.

Here is an example, the NODLER is a Canadian made product, however, Canada only uses the cheaper version and exports the better.

Maybe we have to wait until some large conflict to break out. If I remember my history right, just prior to WW2 the Canadian forces were in a weakend state similar to now. However, by the end of the war we had one of the largest militaries in the world.

Harry and Evergreen, I am just frustrated and I want to hear positive news for once. I shouldn‘t be all negative, there has been the Coyote, the LAV, CADPAD and the cloth the soldier in general. Soon we will see the new G-wagon drive up. However, the contract for that is maybe 850 units, when we purchased 2500 Iltis. Anyway I am rambling here.

 

[Harry]

Hey, don‘t take me the wrong way. But with a modicum of Economics behind me, I find it hard to even listen to the Made in Canada argument anymore.

The ADATS was a victim of the Cold War. Well lets see, de Havilland, Inglis (also of sewing machine fame), numerous electronic companies, Saint John Ship Building, the ever present but elusive Bombardier, White Star, IVECO. All very real, all very temporary and all based upon sole source and single buyer contracts. Diamco has done well, but at what cost to the tax payers. They are turning a tidy profit now, but it wasn‘t so long ago that we tax payers footed a hefty bill in the form of grants etc to keep them operating.

For a weapon that was available and in production, already on the shelf. And don‘t even go near the differences, the original manufacturer could have very easily retooled and not even missed a beat in production.

My point is the artificial economic stimulus created in an area. The end result is usually a large amount of Federal Capital to start the project, Federal monies buying it and then Federal money supporting the subsequent finacial implosion due to unemployment etc.

If you could give me an example of an industry that has staying power, then spend away. But in a real world, let industry see a market, build into it and manage it. Not governments, they have proven time and again they don‘t do it well. can we say White Elephants and boondoggles.

The days of government manipulation for whatever short term/sighted project(s) have to end.

These projects prove time and time again that we are not truly getting the return or bang for our tax payers dollar. If you think that for every dollar of defence investment of new equipment or what not, that the governmant is justified in supplementing every dollar spent with on average 5 to 20 dollars to support the implementation. I beg you to revisit this.

With fiscal budget rationalization and realization, those dollars can be better spent on real physical purchases verse chasing dreams.

It is the equivelant of paying 1000 dollars in wellfare per month to an individual and then justifying a program that costs 20, 000 per month to run, per recipient.

With our GDP and population base in direct comparison to our geographic area of responsibility and global committments, we really need to spend our meagre dollars in a responsible manner. Not building a product here at twice it‘s actual cost or more.

No, I don‘t agree anymore with the Made in canada first thought.

Put it too you this way. You want a new 32 inch TV, there is a model on the shelf for $245 and one for $845. The cheap one is built in Taiwan and is on sale, the other is made in Rimouski. They have the same features, same resolution, etc, in fact the same remote. What are you buying? Answer that and we will see where this topic goes.

 

[rolandstrong]

Kinda related to this topic...I just read in the National Post two interesting things today. First was a call for a new white paper to address the serious shortfalls in the military, and, secondly, the push for Mckenzie (former Brig.Gen) to run for the PC‘s. I think that this conversation, and Digger, your frustration, is something that a good deal of Canadian society is beginning to feel. These above articles do suggest an overall feeling that what is going on in the military is not great...i‘ll play the optimist here, but I think we will see some improvements soon...and I will bet it will be a hot topic on the next election platform (and that is coming soon!)
Ducimus!

 

[Harry]

Didn‘t Lewis run in the last Fed Election as a Tory? Some riding in lower Porcupine Butt or Beaver Hollow around North bay wasn‘t it.

Out of alls eriousness, I thought he had already run as a candidate. Would be interesting to see the outcome.

 

[Linc]

Well there have been quite a few Made in Canada boondogles: the Arrow, ADATS, even the Bombardier Iltis, which apparently cost the govt $82,000 per vehicle while the German VW version was only $29,000 a peice. But what Im saying is Made in Canada products should not be written off entirely. Bombardier/Dehavilland/Canadair is a successful aircraft manufacturer, the world‘s 3rd largest, and the world‘s largest builder of ‘regional‘ and corporate aircraft, however they no longer produce large commercial aircraft or military aircraft, and are mostly a consumer of new technology rather than a producer. In Europe, many small nations band together to produce products that are too costly for any one nation: One country may agree to build the engines, another the fuselage, yet another the landing gear, and so on. The Canadian gov‘t should get aboard these programs so that Canadian companies can remain on the cutting edge.

They do need to be smart and not use these to prop up otherwise unviable enterprises, but established companies like Bombardier, GM Canada, Magellan Aerospace, and so on could surely benefit and there would be significant direct or indirect spinoff benefits to the country.

As was said, Dimaco was supported at taxpayer expense for some time, but is now very profitable, well good for them. To me, that shows that the system works. I guess I see "Value Added" contracts as being part military procurment, and part job creation. I would not mind paying say, $35,000 for a Cdn version of the $29,000 Iltis. I do see very definite limits on this though, and excessive costs are not acceptable.

The only challenge is to ensure that these procurements are not based SOLEY on jobs and investment, that they are first and foremost adequate military equipment. The Griffon helicopter (a civilian Bell 212 with green paint) is not well suited to most military roles, but it was made in Quebec and therefore deemed suiteable. To me that‘s not acceptable

 

[Linc]

PS I think Mackenzie ran in Owen Sound, Ontario.

 

[Harry]

Shipping, that will be one 32 inch TV delivered to Linc from the Rimouski plant.

 

[toms3]

I think he ran as an Alliance...could be wrong.

In the end..I like Evergreen‘s comments and I will hope that changes are coming. What the effect might be...and how long they will take...who knows. Wheather it is built in Canada or off the shelf or both...who knows. I believe that there has been alot of press regarding the condition of the forces. Also, from the feed back of my civvi friends and relatives, I know for the first time that they don‘t like it anymore than I do. With 9/11, with our deployment to Afgan and subsequent (somewhat embarassing) withdrawl, along with other situations, have brought more light to bare upon the CF. So, I hope that like Evergreen stated that it will be a big topic in the next election....not on how to cut more...but on how to build more.

 

[the patriot]

A good place to start would be the Conference of Defence Associations website. They have been dealing with these issues for quite a few years now. Here‘s their link below.

Conference of Defence Associations

-the patriot-

 

[Jungle]

It is true that there is little to no threat to Canada at this time, but just today I was reading in the paper that fresh water will not be available to a large portion of the planet‘s population in 30 years. And I believe we own the largest reserves of fresh water on the planet. Also a few articles recently on the Northwest passage, that could mean some very attractive income in the future. If our govt started to think strategically, they would probably start rebuilding the CF to an appropriate level before it is too late.

 

[toms3]

I hear ya jungle...I hear ya....1000%