New Rucksack

[Fusaki]

I did a couple weeks in the field for Winter EX back in Jan.  One thing I found worked well was not bothering with the compression sack at all.  I just stuffed the sleeping bag with bivvi in the bottom compartment of the ruck and called 'er a day.  When it came time to shut'er down again for the night, I just dragged the bag into the 10 Man tent. It took 30 seconds and was super easy, and sort of funny watching others fuck around for half an hour trying to get all their gear in a compression sack and then fuck around again trying to get the compression sack in the ruck.

The compression straps built into the sides of the ruck do a good enough job squishing everything down, and they'll actually squish the bag down closer to your center of gravity.  I don't know who decided that a medicine ball is an efficient shape to carry on your back, because thats all the compression sack ends up being.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

We used to get issued the compression sacks as part of the issue sleeping bags in the British Army (and for all I know still do), but no one ever used them, for as wonderbread said, a 10kg medicine ball is not what you need in your ruck. It is also a complete balls ache to try and stuff your sleeping system back in and do up the straps when all hell is breaking loose and you're wondering why you didn't try harder at school.

I personally have a 120L Ortlieb canoe bag which serves as a liner with all dry kit kept inside, and sleeping bag inside bivvy bag stuffed in to fill out the spaces. It's completely waterproof and should a river need to be crossed, I can chuck the ruck in the water, grab on and paddle happily away to the far bank.

 

[Jammer]

It is also a complete balls ache to try and stuff your sleeping system back in and do up the straps when all hell is breaking loose and you're wondering why you didn't try harder at school.

That's why you use your small pack on those occasions.
My new ruck is what I lived out of by necessity, and I was glad to have it.
The 82 pattern just didn't do it before.

 

[Fusaki]

That's why you use your small pack on those occasions.

Are you trying to say that you shouldn't be using your ruck in situations you might get shot at? Or are you saying that I should be using my smallpack for the overflow of crap I can't get into my ruck while being shot at?

If the ruck isn't designed for tactical use, they should've just issued me a new kitbag... or maybe a suitcase with an extendable handle and wheels.

 

[PanaEng]

That's why you use your small pack on those occasions.
My new ruck is what I lived out of by necessity, and I was glad to have it.
The 82 pattern just didn't do it before.

The enemy does not take kindly to our well orchestrated plans and often refuses to cooperate with our timetable and clever schedule (be them DS or real ones) 

chimo,
Frank

 

[Quag]

I did a couple weeks in the field for Winter EX back in Jan.  One thing I found worked well was not bothering with the compression sack at all.  I just stuffed the sleeping bag with bivvi in the bottom compartment of the ruck and called 'er a day.  When it came time to shut'er down again for the night, I just dragged the bag into the 10 Man tent. It took 30 seconds and was super easy, and sort of funny watching others frig around for half an hour trying to get all their gear in a compression sack and then frig around again trying to get the compression sack in the ruck.

The compression straps built into the sides of the ruck do a good enough job squishing everything down, and they'll actually squish the bag down closer to your center of gravity.  I don't know who decided that a medicine ball is an efficient shape to carry on your back, because thats all the compression sack ends up being.

Good idea! Now there's thinking outside the box (albeit how simple it is).  I'll try it next time!

Cheers

 

[DirtyDog]

I will admit that the waist belt needs some serious work.  I have permanent scars on my hips from it.  During the Ironman I actually rubbed the skin to the bone.

Not exactly a glowing review from a proponent on the new ruck.    Especially with it causing such serious damage after only be done up for a little over 8 kilometers.  I mean, the waist belt is a very important, infact neccessary as we're told, component is it not?

  And RSM's are starting to enforce that it be worn solely.

Well thankfully, we aren't there... yet.  Until that point I'll stick to my '64 (or a version thereof, some sexy looking ones around now).  Wonderbread's mod sounds interesting and I'm gonna have to swing by and check it out if I can manage the spare time in the next 2 months.  Also, after having been told there are no exchanges or spare parts available for the new ruck, it might find itself NS if it comes down to it.  I don't mean to sound extreme, but I haven't got it to work for me and will stick to what works if possible.

The compression sack is waterproof.  I did test it in my bathtub (hey, it does the job!) and it works excellent, providing you roll the tabs properly.  Add to that the extra protection afforded by the compartment in the ruck and you have a good waterproof seal.

It's a thin skin, compressible dry bag, yes.  Pretty decent indeed but I have yet encounted a dry bag of that style that can hold back water when submerged for any real length of time.  I've learnt the hard way so I get a little defensive when I hear somethign termed "waterproof". 

Also, as to what the others said about packing you're sleeping kit in the bivy.  I always thought this was the ideal method, but successive kit lists and packing instructions, along with the odd instructor, begged to differ.  Meh.

But as I mentioned, I pack my bag in the bivy and all fits well in the compression sack.  Initially I was concerned about the strength of the compression straps and buckles, but I've used and abused them and they have held up without incident.

I've seen more then a few buckles fail on the new ruck.  Granted, it's usually from troops being a little heavy handed but it would be nice to see a product that could take a such abuse, no?

It is also a complete balls ache to try and stuff your sleeping system back in and do up the straps when all hell is breaking loose and you're wondering why you didn't try harder at school.

That's why you use your small pack on those occasions.
My new ruck is what I lived out of by necessity, and I was glad to have it.
The 82 pattern just didn't do it before.

Living out of it is one thing.... fighting out of it is another.

But hey, for those guys that are more or less happy with it, I'm happy for you.  I'm glad it works for you.  I wish I felt the same.  I tried, maybe not tirelessly yet, to get it to work for me but it hasn't yet. 

 

[Quag]

Not exactly a glowing review from a proponent on the new ruck.    Especially with it causing such serious damage after only be done up for a little over 8 kilometers.  I mean, the waist belt is a very important, infact neccessary as we're told, component is it not?
Well thankfully, we aren't there... yet.  Until that point I'll stick to my '64 (or a version thereof, some sexy looking ones around now).  Wonderbread's mod sounds interesting and I'm gonna have to swing by and check it out if I can manage the spare time in the next 2 months.  Also, after having been told there are no exchanges or spare parts available for the new ruck, it might find itself NS if it comes down to it.  I don't mean to sound extreme, but I haven't got it to work for me and will stick to what works if possible.
It's a thin skin, compressible dry bag, yes.  Pretty decent indeed but I have yet encounted a dry bag of that style that can hold back water when submerged for any real length of time.  I've learnt the hard way so I get a little defensive when I hear somethign termed "waterproof". 

Also, as to what the others said about packing you're sleeping kit in the bivy.  I always thought this was the ideal method, but successive kit lists and packing instructions, along with the odd instructor, begged to differ.  Meh.
I've seen more then a few buckles fail on the new ruck.  Granted, it's usually from troops being a little heavy handed but it would be nice to see a product that could take a such abuse, no?
Living out of it is one thing.... fighting out of it is another.

But hey, for those guys that are more or less happy with it, I'm happy for you.  I'm glad it works for you.  I wish I felt the same.  I tried, maybe not tirelessly yet, to get it to work for me but it hasn't yet.

Well put.  Only thing is the Ironman is a couple more kilometres than eight.  You are right the waist belt is hands down a crucial element of the new ruck.  You bring up a good point about the lack of spare parts for the ruck.  Any Sup tech's want to comment? Vern? 

Water resistant is a better term I suppose.  One thing we learn in the military is nothing is ever actually "water proof".  But I did submerge it for a good 3 minutes or so, which is not bad.  How about, highly water resistant

I would not consider myself a hands down proponent.  More neutral but skewed towards the positive side.  I believe there is potential in the ruck, but needs some serious evaluation.  And what better way than the end
user, right?

Perhaps recceguy is right and we are over analyzing a high tech backpack...haha

 

[DirtyDog]

Well put.  Only thing is the Ironman is a couple more kilometres than eight.  You are right the waist belt is hands down a crucial element of the new ruck.

Sorry, you said you had the waistbelt undone for 80% of the Ironman so I assumed any injuries were incurred during this time.  And if it works "perfectly well" without the waistbelt, is it all that crucial?  I don't know.... just what I've been told by those that issued it to me but that expereince left me with more questions then answers.

For the record, my '64 seemed better suited with PPE on and I never had the chance to perfect it as a "PT" ruck for the Ironman and it chewed up my back a fair bit until I undid the waistbelt about half way through.

 

[Jammer]

Lets be real here.
I have yet to have to rely on my ruck to fight out of. It was a means of carrying my worldly possesions around ZP.
The SPS was what I used to "fight" out of.
For the canoeheads in the crowd. Foreven guys have modified thier kit to make the ordeal more bearable. The new ruck will likely not be immune to individual mods either.
You can't please all of the people all of the time.

 

[Quag]

Sorry, you said you had the waistbelt undone for 80% of the Ironman so I assumed any injuries were incurred during this time.  And if it works "perfectly well" without the waistbelt, is it all that crucial?  I don't know.... just what I've been told by those that issued it to me but that expereince left me with more questions then answers.

For the record, my '64 seemed better suited with PPE on and I never had the chance to perfect it as a "PT" ruck for the Ironman and it chewed up my back a fair bit until I undid the waistbelt about half way through.

I should have expanded.  Even with the waist belt off, it still pinches at the side of your hips due to its rigid design.  Hard to describe, but you know what I mean if you have it.

I guess thats the double edged sword.  It does work perfectly well without the waist belt, but as the design is intended, it is the crucial element.  This is because when the waist belt is on and you cinch those pull cords (not sure the exact technical term but you know what i mean) a hefty percentage of the weight is shifted onto your hips, thus making it more effective.

Modified to Add:

As per your fighting out of your rucksack.  I stand to be corrected (armour here, but have served in a reg force infantry regiment), but especially in contemporary warfare, you should rarely find yourself fighting out of your rucksack.  Rucksacks are intended as portable barrack boxes if you will, to get mission and personal kit from one area to another.  Fighting patrols, advances and anything else should be done with the small pack or without anything; ie leaving your kit at the echelon or at your LAV (for the mech inf).  Am I out in left field here?

 

[Jammer]

Quag,
Not out in left field at all.
While deployed with TF Orion, My crew lashed our barrack boxs to the top of our Bison to make up for the lack of space in the 82 pattern.

 

[Fusaki]

Rucksacks are intended as portable barrack boxes if you will, to get mission and personal kit from one area to another. 

If that were the case, then I wouldn't want a ruck for that job anyways.

Honestly. When do you expect to carry a rucksack overseas in a non-tactical situation? A rucksack is intended for the tactical dismounted movement of your gear for extended periods of time. If I'm doing an administrative move, then I'd might as well have a big kitbag that I can just throw on the back of a truck.

The solution to the shitty ruck problem is not to change the role of the rucksack.  It is to find a rucksack that fills the required role.  The mission drives the gear train, not the other way around.

Jammer,

I get the impression that in your situation a kitbag would have been better than or at least just as good as a rucksack. no?

 

[daftandbarmy]

You had a box?  Lucky sod.  We used to get by in an old empty pilchards tin!  Tell kids that today and they won't believe you.

(Homer's voice): "mmmmmmm.... tinned pilchards in tomato sauce"

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

... or maybe a suitcase with an extendable handle and wheels.

That's the new Pelican MOB barrack box replacement, isn't it...?

 

[PhilB]

People need to realize that we do not always have a vehicle. We ran into this on 1-08, everyone is wedded to the concept of operating out of a LAV with an echelon, this is not always possible, there is still a need to operate in a purely light capacity.

I agree the ruck may be a great replacement for a kit bag, and is a step up over the 82 pattern ruck. That being said it blows for humping in a combat environment. Again, it works great for PT ironman bft or otherwise, it is quite comfortable without armour, but overseas, humping a full combat load, actually carrying a ruck in a tactical environment, the CTS ruck is garbage.

 

[Jammer]

Wonderbread:
Thanks for your assessment of my situation, but I am quite adept at deciding what bit of kit is best suited for my particular role.

 

[Quag]

If that were the case, then I wouldn't want a ruck for that job anyways.

Honestly. When do you expect to carry a rucksack overseas in a non-tactical situation? A rucksack is intended for the tactical dismounted movement of your gear for extended periods of time. If I'm doing an administrative move, then I'd might as well have a big kitbag that I can just throw on the back of a truck.

The solution to the shitty ruck problem is not to change the role of the rucksack.  It is to find a rucksack that fills the required role.  The mission drives the gear train, not the other way around.

Jammer,

I get the impression that in your situation a kitbag would have been better than or at least just as good as a rucksack. no?

Thats's exactly what I'm saying.  A ruck is simply a barrack box for the  (tactical) movement of mission specific and personal kit on an operation.

 

[Fusaki]

A ruck is simply a barrack box for the  (tactical) movement of mission specific and personal kit on an operation.

My point is that you can't say that a rucksack is for "tactical movement" unless you're prepared to fight out of it.

Jammer's statement that he "tries and do the fighting out of his smallpack" is a moot point. The fact remains that a rucksack is not very usefull unless you can fight out that too.

Wonderbread:
Thanks for your assessment of my situation, but I am quite adept at deciding what bit of kit is best suited for my particular role.

Hey man, I'm trying not to be a dick here, but you're dodging my question.  If I'm reading you right, you're saying that the rucksack is good because you can pack alot of stuff in it and you don't need to fight out if it.  In my mind, it sounds like a kitbag would be just as good.

In my opinion,  a rucksack needs to be able to carry alot of stuff and be practical in a tactical environment.  If you can't fight out of it, then it's a shitty rucksack. Full stop.

 

[Jammer]

Wonderbread,
I WAS in a tactical  situation. Therefore the ruck WAS the ideal item of kit for that purpose.
No one toted a kit bag around in ZP.