New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Halifax Tar]

I remember HMCS Restigouche having to arrest a drug smuggling ship with it's main gun turret jammed in one direction. Having all major CCG vessels armed with .50cals gives you a larger pool of assets to support LEO boarding parties. It adds value to a already expensive asset and does not add a significant training or maintenance burden.

As to the poor Fishcops, much of their problems is a dismal payscale and management that treats them like dirt. It's miracle anyone signs up for the job. The management certainly does not deserve the employees they have. Fun fact I used to have to use part of my travel budget to put fuel into DFO boats so they could support my work and allow them to do theirs. DFO routinely cut their fuel budget to the point where they could not leave the office.

Are you sure that wasn't a feature ?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Are you sure that wasn't a feature ?

Under Chreatin even the SAR Cutters were tied to the wall and fish hatcheries shut down. DFO management were "Special" as in sociopaths and intent on building their careers on the backs of others.

 

[Swampbuggy]

I simple do not see the point in bringing the CCG into the picture to dump part of the burden upon them, versus actually providing the support and funding required to the RCN to properly do the job they are required to do. Fund each organization to do what they are mandated and required to do, don't cross pollinate them into each others responsibilities.

There is no realistic way to gain back that ground and honestly, meddling with the system as it spins up now is only a recipe for disaster. It makes no sense to have put all of this money and effort into yards like Irving if the plan is to steal away their work, spit in the face of the NSS and magic up another yard to split that work away. Those ample opportunities for continuous work are already set in stone with the few yards we have, I am struggling to see why we would even entertain screwing the process up at this critical juncture. The Halifax class simple have to wait for the River class to come online, there is really no way to get around this while Irving builds those ships. There is no way to speed this process up without hurting Irving and the other shipyards with their currently unfolding programs.

I agree that the ideal solution would be do exactly as you state and fund the RCN, as well as properly equip them.

As for the inevitably of the sit and wait for the RIVERS, you’re gonna get people pitching ideas in the interim and sometimes those ideas will make sense, if even modified somewhat. Necessity is the mother of invention, as the saying goes, so maybe something will crop up that addresses your concerns and provides a solution on some level. I don’t think stifling creative thinking outside the box has ever been helpful. I get the danger of not seeing things for what they are, but if you’ve cut your arm badly and EMS is 20 minutes away, you’re gonna do what you can to stanch the bleeding rather than sit in a snowdrift, resigned to bleed out.

 

[RangerRay]

I simple do not see the point in bringing the CCG into the picture to dump part of the burden upon them, versus actually providing the support and funding required to the RCN to properly do the job they are required to do. Fund each organization to do what they are mandated and required to do, don't cross pollinate them into each others responsibilities.

This sounds a lot how some provinces are getting their non-police law enforcement agencies to do police work outside their mandate because the police of jurisdiction is not properly resourced. Now those agencies aren’t properly resourced to work their mandate.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

There is a lot of Coastal policing that needs doing and a lot of it is domestic related, beefing up the CCG abilty to support LEO agencies will be useful. Generally the RCMP has one large patrol boat operating at a time, even though they have 3 vessels. It's rare to have them all working at once. RCMP marine services suffers the same issues as everyone else.

 

[Stoker]

There is a lot of Coastal policing that needs doing and a lot of it is domestic related, beefing up the CCG abilty to support LEO agencies will be useful. Generally the RCMP has one large patrol boat operating at a time, even though they have 3 vessels. It's rare to have them all working at once. RCMP marine services suffers the same issues as everyone else.

Perhaps we should paint some CG ships grey and have them join the RCN?

 

[dapaterson]

Perhaps we should paint some CG ships grey and have them join the RCN?

Just got six of those.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Perhaps we should paint some CG ships grey and have them join the RCN?

Actually there was 5 civilian fleets, the RCMP fleet, the PW fleet (gray with white upperworks), Science fleet (white), DFO fleet (gray) and the CCG fleet (At first red with white upperworks for Navaids and red/yellow for SAR). The PW fleet was sold off as the government divested the docks and harbours, the white, gray and red fleet were forcibly amalgamated into a Red/White fleet and SAR lost their distinctive yellow.

The CCG itself was the result of the forcibly amalgamation of the Department of Transport and the RCAF Air-Sea Rescue boats/stations. In fact Kits base was handed over to the new CCG including base, boats and personal.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Just got six of those.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Sometimes, amalgamation is not the solution one expects it to be.





It's 51st to 63rd US state, Mr. President, not just the 51st.

 

[lenaitch]

This sounds a lot how some provinces are getting their non-police law enforcement agencies to do police work outside their mandate because the police of jurisdiction is not properly resourced. Now those agencies aren’t properly resourced to work their mandate.

Or how the provinces are diverting resources to border patrol. I'm sure conservation officers are thrilled.

 

[BdaDug]

Yes. There is a need to cost the lifecycle. And to effectively communicate the difference between acquisition cost and lifecycle cost.

You can't speak advanced concepts to an uneducated public through a dilutive media that dumbs down everything for the lowest common denominator and then still expect a valid message to be conveyed. You're whistling in the wind ...

 

[BdaDug]

Multi-mission decks are seemingly the future and allow for a serious amount of variety in how ships can be configured for specific missions, any design that does not have that as a primary design feature is not worthy of consideration. The 45 personnel requirement of the CMMC currently is a bit crazy but there is serious requirements needed to be personnel efficient given the issues across the force.

If Canada seriously wants to get a Kingston replacement that is also a combatant and on a reasonable timeframe, they'll effectively need to get an exemption and procure them abroad. The 1,000t light load NSS cutoff artificially limits what can be done domestically to a pretty big degree. Kingston will be retired for like 6+ years before the current planned CMMC schedule is met, which is already insanely optimistic.

Or pull a page from the Donald's playbook and make them an offer they can't refuse - change the limit or else. I'm sure there's a piece of legislation somewhere that allows for extreme measures in time of national emergencies. If we're unable to rationalize that today in the face of threatened economic annexation, we need better lawyers in govt.

 

[BdaDug]

I'm very, very old, but: consistent life-cycle-costing and 'management' ( and the word consistent - across gov't, not just within the military - matters Hugely) is the ONLY sensible way to plan. Things like 'bathtub curves are very real and everyone needs to understand them and plan for them.

Plan, yes. Communicate to the masses, no.

 

[Rainbow1910]

I agree that the ideal solution would be do exactly as you state and fund the RCN, as well as properly equip them.

As for the inevitably of the sit and wait for the RIVERS, you’re gonna get people pitching ideas in the interim and sometimes those ideas will make sense, if even modified somewhat. Necessity is the mother of invention, as the saying goes, so maybe something will crop up that addresses your concerns and provides a solution on some level. I don’t think stifling creative thinking outside the box has ever been helpful. I get the danger of not seeing things for what they are, but if you’ve cut your arm badly and EMS is 20 minutes away, you’re gonna do what you can to stanch the bleeding rather than sit in a snowdrift, resigned to bleed out.

I don't think people understand how limited shipbuilding within North America is and how tightly planned the NSS actually is. There is effectively no yards that could be used to speed up River class production in any meaningful way without taking Davie and throwing their very important CCG icebreaker contracts to the side. The RCN is not the only Canadian Govt organization that desperately needs ship as well. It is politically infeasible to send that work to Europe or to the United States, given the already signed contracts and contractors/sub-contractors for all of these materials and for the US, the lack of suitable yards.

A more accurate analogy to this situation with NSS would be you've cut your arm badly and EMS is 20 minutes away, so you go cut a bystanders arm and try to do an infield blood transfusion.

Or pull a page from the Donald's playbook and make them an offer they can't refuse - change the limit or else. I'm sure there's a piece of legislation somewhere that allows for extreme measures in time of national emergencies. If we're unable to rationalize that today in the face of threatened economic annexation, we need better lawyers in govt.

The issue is that there is debatably no (or very few) yards within Canada that could reasonably do the world we're looking at for CMMC on a larger platform, even if the arbitrary 1,000t/Combatant NSS limitation is shrugged off. They'll need to go abroad and order them tomorrow if they want to make the Kingston class retirement dates.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I don't think people understand how limited shipbuilding within North America is and how tightly planned the NSS actually is. There is effectively no yards that could be used to speed up River class production in any meaningful way without taking Davie and throwing their very important CCG icebreaker contracts to the side. The RCN is not the only Canadian Govt organization that desperately needs ship as well. It is politically infeasible to send that work to Europe or to the United States, given the already signed contracts and contractors/sub-contractors for all of these materials and for the US, the lack of suitable yards.

A more accurate analogy to this situation with NSS would be you've cut your arm badly and EMS is 20 minutes away, so you go cut a bystanders arm and try to do an infield blood transfusion.


The issue is that there is debatable no (or very few) yards within Canada that could reasonably do the world we're looking at for CMMC on a larger platform, even if the arbitrary 1,000t/Combatant NSS limitation is shrugged off. They'll need to go abroad and order them tomorrow if they want to make the Kingston class retirement dates.

Let's be clear, the output rate of CSC's by Irving, under the current 'plan', is insufficient and will do nothing to increase the operational availability of warships to the RCN over the next 20+yrs. Will there ever be the case of having 15 CSC's commissioned and accepted into service at any one time?
If the current output is kept and in fact used going forward after the CSC's have been replaced, (at course assuming that Canada is still in existence) and Irving continues to be the sole source for main naval combatants, we will forever be kneecapped as a naval power. Whoever came up with and inserted the current 1,000 ton limitation made one heck of a mistake on the Government's side.

 

[lenaitch]

I don't think people understand how limited shipbuilding within North America is and how tightly planned the NSS actually is. There is effectively no yards that could be used to speed up River class production in any meaningful way without taking Davie and throwing their very important CCG icebreaker contracts to the side. The RCN is not the only Canadian Govt organization that desperately needs ship as well. It is politically infeasible to send that work to Europe or to the United States, given the already signed contracts and contractors/sub-contractors for all of these materials and for the US, the lack of suitable yards.

A more accurate analogy to this situation with NSS would be you've cut your arm badly and EMS is 20 minutes away, so you go cut a bystanders arm and try to do an infield blood transfusion.


The issue is that there is debatably no (or very few) yards within Canada that could reasonably do the world we're looking at for CMMC on a larger platform, even if the arbitrary 1,000t/Combatant NSS limitation is shrugged off. They'll need to go abroad and order them tomorrow if they want to make the Kingston class retirement dates.

Among the general public, I think there is either a lack of understanding of our (lack of) shipbuilding capacity and/or a nostalgic view from WWII when simpler and smaller ships were burping out of multiple yards on the coasts and Great Lakes. Neither exists anymore.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Let's be clear, the output rate of CSC's by Irving, under the current 'plan', is insufficient and will do nothing to increase the operational availability of warships to the RCN over the next 20+yrs. Will there ever be the case of having 15 CSC's commissioned and accepted into service at any one time?
If the current output is kept and in fact used going forward after the CSC's have been replaced, (at course assuming that Canada is still in existence) and Irving continues to be the sole source for main naval combatants, we will forever be kneecapped as a naval power.

The River class had a designed service life of 30 years per hull if I recall correctly, the first vessel is planned to be service in the early 2030's and the last vessel is planned to enter in 2048-2049. Irving may be able to speed this process up as the process goes along, as we have seen with AOPS, but this is likely a decent schedule to look at. Disposal of the first vessel is planned for 2061-2062 and disposal for the final vessel is planned for 2081-2082. There will be a period where all 15 ships will likely be in service, spanning roughly a decade.

Whoever came up with and inserted the current 1,000 ton limitation made one heck of a mistake on the Government's side.

This was done to keep the small and irrelevant yards from bogging down the bidding process for the large CCG and RCN orders when they were ultimately unable to deliver. The entire purpose of NSS was to consolidate work in two (and alter three) large yards to maintain said yards long term. There was obviously no view on the Kingston replacement evolving above that 1,000t light limit at the time.

 

[Czech_pivo]

The River class had a designed service life of 30 years per hull if I recall correctly, the first vessel is planned to be service in the early 2030's and the last vessel is planned to enter in 2048-2049. Irving may be able to speed this process up as the process goes along, as we have seen with AOPS, but this is likely a decent schedule to look at. Disposal of the first vessel is planned for 2061-2062 and disposal for the final vessel is planned for 2081-2082. There will be a period where all 15 ships will likely be in service, spanning roughly a decade.


This was done to keep the small and irrelevant yards from bogging down the bidding process for the large CCG and RCN orders when they were ultimately unable to deliver. The entire purpose of NSS was to consolidate work in two (and alter three) large yards to maintain said yards long term. There was obviously no view on the Kingston replacement evolving above that 1,000t light limit at the time.

Either the decision was made to not think beyond current state (displaying a total lack of vision) or a willful decision was made to hamstring the RCN well into the future by not ever for seeing the need for the RCN to have to ever replace 2 classes of ships at the same with ships greater than 1,000 tons.

Tell me, who will replace the AOPS when they begin rusting out in the 2040's at the exact same time to replace the CSC's? Please don't say that the plan is for Irving to replace those before they even begin replacing the CSC's as the country will be back in the exact same situation it is currently.

The NSS was written over 15yrs ago and its time for it to be revised - the world has changed and unless the RCN, the Gov't of Canada and the CDN people change - and change tout suite - we all better start learning to sing, 'Oh say can you see' nice and loud.

 

[YZT580]

Either the decision was made to not think beyond current state (displaying a total lack of vision) or a willful decision was made to hamstring the RCN well into the future by not ever for seeing the need for the RCN to have to ever replace 2 classes of ships at the same with ships greater than 1,000 tons.

Tell me, who will replace the AOPS when they begin rusting out in the 2040's at the exact same time to replace the CSC's? Please don't say that the plan is for Irving to replace those before they even begin replacing the CSC's as the country will be back in the exact same situation it is currently.

The NSS was written over 15yrs ago and its time for it to be revised - the world has changed and unless the RCN, the Gov't of Canada and the CDN people change - and change tout suite - we all better start learning to sing, 'Oh say can you see' nice and loud.

too true. At the time it was written nobody was imagining that we would be staring at the possibility of a war. The NSS was written to promote Canadian jobs and gain votes, not because anyone believed that we would actually use the damn things.