National Interests

[JBC]

Ladies and Gents,

In class today one of my mates asked a question that left a great deal of silence to be heard..even among some of the very experienced soldiers. So I'm throwing it out there. "Protecting Canadian Interests" What does that mean to you? As a Canadian Soldier (sailor/air personnel) what do you perceive as being a national interest? Two possible groups:

1. Those interests whom you think our country (i.e. government) is presently...er....interested in and maybe even acting on. 
2. Those that should be adopted but are not necessarily talked about all the time. 

Sounds political...but it's not meant be because my end state is this: to determine solid "interests" from among the same people who at the end of the day live an die in their name ...the ones who turn words into actions. Perhaps more people will then think about what it is that our nation SHOULD be working for. Is it helping failed states? So far...yes...some. Is it reinforcing internal security?  Could be. Is it helping the RCMP stamp out drug trafficking through aide to civil powers...Dunno! Maybe it is "taking back the North (establishing firmer sovereignty)" I have no clue...What say you!

 

[CH1]

Coming from the last generation of Canadian Army that were not allowed to vote.  Our credo was "ours is to do or die, not to question why".  As I have not taught BMT for a very long time, I don't know what they now teach.

How ever we were taught to obey & execute any lawful order given to us.  Our first priority was the safety & soverinty of Canada, in what ever role that may be.

It may be very simplistic.  It may also be the answer to the silence.  The military is supposed to be apolitical, with out opinion.

This has been the ideology for myself spanning 37+ years.

Cheers

 

[JBC]

CH1,

Absolutely, I agree that in our capacity as professionals our open opinion on such matters should be left at home. And if I'm given a job that doesn't immediately seem to make sense I'll still do it...But right now we're just chatting right?  I want to know people's minds as soldiers...but after 1630hrs, ideologies on hold. Thanks for responding, Cheers.

Break Break

Think about that publication "Duty With Honour" which (I thought) was supposed to clear up issues like this. Honestly, the majority of my troops found it to be of little or no use in giving them even an idea of what the present or future interests of our country were either at home or around the world...of course that will eat at someone.

As an example, I would want to hear something like "okay troops...the Prime Minister just told Canada that as a country we have taken a new interest in bringing genocide to an end in such a such a country...saddle up" Sounds good...short, concise, but now we KNOW. Now we know that as Canadians our interest lay in stopping genocide. Right now our interests lay in what? Whatever is the flavour of the week? Gimme a break, when your playing with peoples lives you go all the way or not at all in supporting them, and if you don't support them, bring them home.  If Parliament can't determine some well defined national interests which the CF can focus their collective efforts on then I'm sure many people here can.

At the end of the day this is about reasoning a task/mission/interest, in your own mind so that you can help soldiers to reason it in theirs. Based on what? On the premise that the whole nation is standing shoulder to shoulder with them...(at least in spirit)  Maybe no one else finds that thought comforting but I think its the difference between having soldiers who WILL do the job and those who WANT to do the job.     

 

[TCBF]

"Coming from the last generation of Canadian Army that were not allowed to vote. "

Didn't the overseas soldier votes result in a govt change during WW1?

Tom

 

[Gunner]

Coming from the last generation of Canadian Army that were not allowed to vote.  Our credo was "ours is to do or die, not to question why".  As I have not taught BMT for a very long time, I don't know what they now teach.

I can not say I have ever heard that this fundamental right of a citizen of Canada was ever taken away simply by wearing a uniform.  You will have to provide some type of reference for me to believe you.  CH1, you say a lot of things that are untrue and members reading your posts should do so with scepticism.

 

[JBC]

Nobody has anything to say?  :-[ <<sigh>> okay...feel free to shut this one down mods.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Nobody has anything to say?   :-[ <<sigh>> okay...feel free to shut this one down mods.

Considering you just started the thread this morning, give people a chance to think, digest and respond. Sometimes it takes days before a thread gets going.

 

[S McKee]

Coming from the last generation of Canadian Army that were not allowed to vote.  

Excuse me?  What generation was that?

 

[JBC]

I suspect CH1 was attempting a witty poke at me for expressing my "new age" desire to have independent thought and discussion, contrary to how we would "normally" conduct ourselves around our subordinates.  IMHO "new age" doesn't exist...troops (NCO and Officer) have always been intelligent, independent thinker, even if they did get their ass kicked in training, its just now the trend in my limited experience the question coming from DS has been "what do you think Mr. EXNovie?"

To answer CH1s question about how things are done on BMT I dont know, I didn't do Reg force BMQ. As an up and coming officer, I was trained to question orders, if only in my own mind, to make sure it is lawful, and to support my commander if he's wrong, not screw him over by saying nothing. The logical condition is...If it goes beyond being in your mind...it is voiced carefully so and with tact.

But back to the Thread!

 

[CH1]

Gunner

I probably worded the comment on the vote strongly.  But we were strongly discouraged from voting.  I do not think there is any online version of QRO's from that era, to check references.

You are a different generation, from me.  You obviously were not there in the 60's & 70's.

Starting where I did @ the end of the 60's to where you started in the mid 80's,  is a radical change of mindset.  I do not envy the transformations, you ppl are going through,  but the transformations & permutations in the  "Unification years" did a lot of damage.

As for mud slinging, I'm not into it.  Seen too much over the years.  PM me & we can have a chat.

Cheers

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You are a different generation, from me.   You obviously were not there in the 60's & 70's.

Well I'm not and I was, and I've never heard such nonsense. Couldn't vote, discouraged to vote, bullshit. I can recall one very expensive Gun Camp where we shut down the Range for three hours and went to the polling booth that was set up in the marquis. It was for a federal election and every member of the Regiment voted their riding from across Canada.

 

[Young KH]

That's true but many didn't have time for their beer and to vote also so isn't that the same as being stopped from voting.

Putting that aside I think the question was - - - "Protecting Canadian Interests" What does that mean to you? As a Canadian Soldier "

Democracy is like Three wolves sitting down with a single sheep and voting on what's for supper. "Protecting Canadian Interests" means that we protect the sheep too as well as the wolves.

Maybe what I write at the bottom says it all too.

I disagree 100% in what you have to say.
But would fight to the death for your right to have said it.

 

[Jack Neilson]

Quote:
Coming from the last generation of Canadian Army that were not allowed to vote.

Reply:
Sorry old man but I joined the Canadian Army in the early 50s and exercised my right to vote even when I was posted overseas.  We declared our home of record ( in my case Winnipeg)  and our vote was counted there.  Once a year we could change our home of record to another Canadian residence.
Jack

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That's true but many didn't have time for their beer and to vote also so isn't that the same as being stopped from voting.

I'm not quite sure what your implying here.

 

[Young KH]

Just that I never missed an election in my life, let alone my carrear but many of the others would rather spend their 3 or so hours at the mess drinking beer and come to think of it they were also the ones with the biggest complaints the next day no matter who won.

But that was not the question here.

I believe it is our job to protect democracy whether we believe in what is going on at that exact time or not. Both the wolves and the sheep.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Hmmm, I could be wrong, it's been a long time, but I thought we used to keep the bar closed until the polls closed. Not that it's important. Yeah, you always get the biggest whine from the guys that didn't participate.

 

[Young KH]

Well fellow Recce
You could be right there. Mind you I was voting and when I returned to barracks they were already well gone.

LOL

 

[honestyrules]

To me what it means is kinda funny. "Protect Canadian interests". You know, if you think about the Americans, for example, Fuel, democracy VS communism (old days), citizens working overseas, colonies.... That's what we're talking about. Stuff that happens overseas and affect or pi.. off the government, for some reasons, sometimes unknown to the citizens.

In our case, being a peacefull country (and kinda low profile on the international scene) compared to our close neighbours ,there is not a whole lot of things that we have to protect overseas (our interests). OK, our people, embassies....


My two cents...

 

[JBC]

there is not a whole lot of things that we have to protect overseas

Consider this quote from General Hillier last Thursday: 

Terrorists must not be allowed to feed on the instability of countries like Afghanistan lest that instability be allowed to "come home to roost here..."

Our government's interest in Afghanistan in the context of the quote is intended as being a preventative measure against terrorism. I am sure all CF members readily support this. Therefore, I classify it as being a very current interest being actively pursued.

While it may seem that there are not a whole lot of things that we have to protect overseas places like Afghanistan appear to be are becoming an extension to our nation. CF presence there is a direct imposition of our nation values/ethos (not to mention fighting will) onto a foreign enemy with a nice side effects of democracy for the Afghani people, and a major shut down for the baddies.

 

[JBC]

"Protecting Canadian Interests" means that we protect the sheep too as well as the wolves.

Young KH,

I like it. Does this apply to "sheep from away" as well? In other words as a democratic nation would it be a national interest to spread democracy abroad if for no other reason than what General Hillier commented on? Or are these domestic sheep only?