"MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles" and "Replace base MP with RCMP"

[jollyjacktar]

This was looked at by TB in the 90's.  It was called the FLUR or Federal Law Enforcement Under Review.  TB came to the conclusion that they were indeed paying for numerous organizatons to do LE for the Federal Gov't and there were many duplications and layers.  ie.  RCMP and CBSA have some overlap.  It was thought that if they could dovetail everyone under one umbrella there would be considerable cost savings to be had.  Great idea in theory, but here we are almost 20 years later, still the same.  The idea did not fly then and I doubt it will fly now.  IIRC the idea we heard was that the MP would be absorbed into the RCMP and would carry on as normal under their umbrella as would the other agencies such as Federal Fisheries, Corrections etc etc.

 

[OldSolduer]

To continue down the path you are taking, the same argument could be made of any CSS trade.  CANCAP proved pretty conclusively that with the exception of a very few positions, any of those trades can be replaced by civilian contractors in theatre and in the SLOC.  Hell, why do we even bother to have orderly rooms full of RMS Clerks in Canada?  Make them all PS positions, then they'll be able to actually get some work done instead of taking time out of their day for PT, parades, hair cuts, trips to supply, career manager visits etc etc.  It's not going to have an affect when we deploy, all we need to do is take a couple combat arms folks and make them the company scribe for the tour.

Can you order a civilian to pick up a weapon and defend themselves?
Can you order a civilian to deploy to start to a theatre of ops - or even on exercise?
Can you demand a civilian be physically fit?
Can you order a civilian to do some of the tasks military pers do as a matter of course?

I would say No to all the above.

As for your comment WRT to making cbt arms folks company clerks - not a fat chance. Administration is the job of the RMS world, not for an infantry, arty , cbt engr or armoured soldier. They belong with the F ech.  Administration is complex - and us infantry guys are "short words, small sentences types".

 

[Edward Campbell]

At first I was very upset at the very idea.  The RCMP could lose some contracts as provincial forces if other were to adapt a OPP/QPP regime.
So to maintain the giant machine and empire there has to be conquests.  As the monster grows. 
From my limited exposure since I retired as an MP, I see that the MP has maybe gone from a Mayberry type homey feel with a Big M, Little P to a big P.
So now it is a spec trade and most applicants are direct entry college trained Police Foundations and I tend to believe has possibly grown as a stepping stone to a civilian police career. Always an issue.
Our MPs have done an excellent job now and always as demonstrated in ALL taskings, past present and future.  I still recall the RP/MP regimental set-up.  It was an excellent option for  combat arm types to have transition in a viable civie trade.  But the remuster format is different now with the spec issue and police foundations.  To go RCMP would be a major mistake, to drop some young rookie kid into a military community would not be the best option.  A constant influx of persons on a learning curve at the expense of the military community and the labour intensive process of liaison and implementation.  More wasted effort, if it ain't broke don't fix it or leave it alone.
There are limited options to a person who does years and years in either a field unit or at sea.  So 30 yrs of humping a rucksack or sail after sail.  And what to do upon retirement. 
To think you will have a person go to a RP section and return to a field unit would be a hard sell. 
We experience constant change for the sake of change or to satify the annual review for some HR specialist in RCMP HQ.

That, too little military too much police, is my (outsider's) perception of the 21st century MP vs, say, the 20th century Canadian Provost Corps. There was no doubt that the CProC were MILITARY - they looked it and they acted it. Here in Ottawa I routinely, as late as Remembrance Day, near the National War Memorial, see overweight, sloppily dressed and lackadaisical MPs who cannot possibly have the respect of real soldiers. If we need police then the RCMP are real police with all the right training and so on. I'm not saying we don't need MPs but I think their duties might be better focused on security (physical and computer security*), where I hear there are real problems, rather than policing which, it seems to me might be done by a relatively few real police officers. (When I was a CO I had one serious 'criminal' case - the base MPs allowed that they could not handle it and they called in the regional RCMP would could and did. That was a long time ago, but ...)

______
* Which is vastly different from COMSEC which is not and should not be a MP responsibility.


Edit: typo

 

[dapaterson]

The MP branch lacks the critical mass to do all the things it would like to do.  Add to that the need to post MPs around, and it becomes difficult to build the long-term experience within sub-fields of police work that is needed to sustain a credible, fully-featured police force.

I tend to agree with ERC; a more focussed MP capability with RCMP to provide more of the heavy lifting in the more technically challenging police areas would probably be preferable to our current system.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

To continue down the path you are taking, the same argument could be made of any CSS trade.  CANCAP proved pretty conclusively that with the exception of a very few positions, any of those trades can be replaced by civilian contractors in theatre and in the SLOC.  Hell, why do we even bother to have orderly rooms full of RMS Clerks in Canada?  Make them all PS positions, then they'll be able to actually get some work done instead of taking time out of their day for PT, parades, hair cuts, trips to supply, career manager visits etc etc.  It's not going to have an affect when we deploy, all we need to do is take a couple combat arms folks and make them the company scribe for the tour.

But really, do we have to have the "Replace MPs with the RCMP" tirades ad nauseum?  If you want to join on the pile on, there are a ton of threads in the MP sub-forum you can add your thoughts to.  I doubt any of them are going to be original though.

IIRC and I might be mistaken, but somewhere in my foggy memory I seem to recall that the RCMP were\ are still listed on the Order of Battle. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police were accorded the status of a regiment of Dragoons in 1921, with its first guidon presented in 1935.

So, not quite civilian contractors.

 

[The Bread Guy]

IIRC and I might be mistaken, but somewhere in my foggy memory I seem to recall that the RCMP were\ are still listed on the Order of Battle. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police were accorded the status of a regiment of Dragoons in 1921, with its first guidon presented in 1935.

As recently as WW2, it appears a detachment of RCMP was listed on the order of battle for the 1st Canadian Army (as 1st Provost Company (RCMP)) - here's a list of the WW2 fallen, as well as a bit more history of 1 Provost Coy, from the RCMP web site

So, not quite civilian contractors.

Not even close - based on the Depot training alone, they're quite military in their orientation.  I think the only thing keeping the RCMP from being considered paramilitary police, like some European gendarme forces, would be the fact that they don't "work for" DND.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

To continue down the path you are taking, the same argument could be made of any CSS trade.  CANCAP proved pretty conclusively that with the exception of a very few positions, any of those trades can be replaced by civilian contractors in theatre and in the SLOC.  Hell, why do we even bother to have orderly rooms full of RMS Clerks in Canada?  Make them all PS positions, then they'll be able to actually get some work done instead of taking time out of their day for PT, parades, hair cuts, trips to supply, career manager visits etc etc.  It's not going to have an affect when we deploy, all we need to do is take a couple combat arms folks and make them the company scribe for the tour.

But really, do we have to have the "Replace MPs with the RCMP" tirades ad nauseum?  If you want to join on the pile on, there are a ton of threads in the MP sub-forum you can add your thoughts to.  I doubt any of them are going to be original though.

but you will get more grievances, people going on strike, etc. The clash of cultures could be a problem. Maybe a new tradegroup for disabled vets who are non-deployable, still military but do the admin work instead. It won't work for all but it may help to keep good people and allow the Regimental family to look after it's own.

 

[garb811]

I don't buy your slippery slope.  CANCAP and Public Service are civilian.  Members of the RCMP are members of a service.  Like CF service members, they have patroled with weapons & armour outside the wire in Afghanistan.

Not a slippery slope statement but rather one dripping with sarcasm.  Each Most Branches remain in existance for the very reason that their capabilities and skills are required on order; those that could be replaced by civilians because they weren't critical for deployment, were mostly cut back in the 90s, such as the PERIs.  Although some CIVPOL did patrol outside the wire with weapons and armour, nobody was able to order them to do so, nor was anyone able to order them to deploy to Afghanistan, period.  If enough CIVPOL had failed to volunteer or been repated/failed to return from leave, the positions would have remained vacant (as has happened on other missions) or the MP Coy would have been tasked to supply, as happened on several occassions.

That, too little military too much police, is my (outsider's) perception of the 21st century MP vs, say, the 20th century Canadian Provost Corps. There was no doubt that the CProC were MILITARY - they looked it and they acted it. Here in Ottawa I routinely, as late as Remembrance Day, near the National War Memorial, see overweight, sloppily dressed and lackadaisical MPs who cannot possibly have the respect of real soldiers. If we need police then the RCMP are real police with all the right training and so on. I'm not saying we don't need MPs but I think their duties might be better focused on security (physical and computer security*), where I hear there are real problems, rather than policing which, it seems to me might be done by a relatively few real police officers. (When I was a CO I had one serious 'criminal' case - the base MPs allowed that they could not handle it and they called in the regional RCMP would could and did.  That was a long time ago, but ...)

Exactly.  As with many "justifications" of this type it is based on your perceptions based upon limited experiences years ago which do not reflect the reality of today.  Ref the "real police" shot and the insinuation that all MP must be improperly trained, sloppily dressed and lackadaisical because you routinely see them in Ottawa comments, I thought you were above that Mr. Campbell.  You're one of the few on this board who is usually able to stay out of that proverbial mud.

But really, do we have to have the "Replace MPs with the RCMP" tirades ad nauseum?  If you want to join on the pile on, there are a ton of threads in the MP sub-forum you can add your thoughts to.  I doubt any of them are going to be original though.

Yep, nothing new.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I have to agree with garb811 on what the MP bring to the table operationally wise.  While the CivPol are great guys and fantastic police officers, they are domestic professionals first and foremost.  Domestic policing is not operational policing.  They are apples and oranges.  And I'm sorry, but there are things that the CivPol will not be able to provide the CF that the MP do unless they have come into the civilian market from the CF originally.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I have to agree with garb811 on what the MP bring to the table operationally wise.  While the CivPol are great guys and fantastic police officers, they are domestic professionals first and foremost.  Domestic policing is not operational policing.  They are apples and oranges.  And I'm sorry, but there are things that the CivPol will not be able to provide the CF that the MP do unless they have come into the civilian market from the CF originally.

Enlighten us to those 'things' that only an MP is capable of please, and why a paramilitary LEO (RCMP) placed under command couldn't do them. I'm truly intrigued.

 

[J.J]

Enlighten us to those 'things' that only an MP is capable of please, and why a paramilitary LEO (RCMP) placed under command couldn't do them. I'm truly intrigued.

The RCMP will never allow their members to be put under command of anybody. JFO's in Ontario the RCMP generally don't "play well" with others. They are accustomed to doing things their way.
The RCMP are drastically under staffed and if the RCMP took over policing for bases I would suggest the members per base would be less than desired. The CF would have control for the number of MP's, not RCMP on bases.
http://www.burnabynewsleader.com/opinion/letters/114144934.html
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/pubs/duxbury-eng.htm
http://colinkenny.ca/en/The-New-RCMP-Commissioner-Restoring-Respect-Wont-Come-Cheap
http://colinkenny.ca/en/Would-a-Real-Law-and-Order-Government-Let-the-RCMP-Crumble
http://colinkenny.ca/en/p102221

It was also commented that the RCMP would not "understand" the military sub-culture and you may have issues, I have to agree with that comment. The RCMP are a professional police force that is a paramilitary organization, not a military organization such as the MP's.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

We're not talking about the RCMP as gate guards to a base. We're talking an operational setting and they have come under command of the military before. South Africa 1900-2, France & Flanders 1918, Siberia 1918-19, Europe 1939-45 to name four instances.

 

[OldSolduer]

From what I'm reading the MILITARY Police have become the military POLICE. They need to become MILITARY again and do things like man the Bn Info Post, take care of PW handling and traffic control in the FIELD.

We don't need Starsky and Hutch driving an MP vehicle hither and yon to investigate things the RSM could take care of.

We need MPs who do Military Police things.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I concur with Jim.  I have met and continue to meet outstanding MPs.

I am dismayed at the fixation on CP and the drain it places on MP Dets.  I cannot understand the active avoidance of traditional field MP tasks such as traffic control and route signage.  Above the local level, the MP leadership does not seem much interested in Force Protection- unless it is overseas. Why do MPs still do embassy work?  Should DFAIT not grow up at some point and hire their own security guards?

the CF MP Gp is becoming a reasonably good, if not excellent federal police force.  The question that we the CF must ask is- how many Police officers does the CF really need?  Do we need over 1000 credentialled law enforcers in CF of 100,000 (including Reserves and Cadets?).  Are we that crime ridden?

 

[McG]

From what I'm reading the MILITARY Police have become the military POLICE.

I'd take it a step farther - in many ways military police have become garrison police.  The uniforms, equipment, and vehicles cast the image of civilian community police -  the focus of duties also seems to match.

The RCMP will never allow their members to be put under command of anybody.

If the RCMP were given the garrison policing mandate from the MPs, you could expect that there would be RCMP Act and NDA changes that would make irrelevant what the RCMP want to allow.

The RCMP are drastically under staffed ...

A transfer of mandate should also come with a transfer of resources (ie. the RCMP would get PYs, and a selection process would allow military pers to transfer to the RCMP and fill those positions).

 

[Dissident]

I cannot understand the active avoidance of traditional field MP tasks such as traffic control and route signage.

Although I share the dismay about the lack of focus on hard field skills (I don't see them being maintained beyond the current Afg mission) it is hard to justify maintaining route signage skills when we are unlikely to use those skills ever again. Traffic control doesn't require a whole lot of practice to be proficient at and we can pick that up as required.

What is really shocking to me is that we were not 100% (or at least close to be) able to document and process the detainees when we hit the ground in Kandahar. I not critical of roto 0 here, I think there was a lack of foresight on the part of the branch to refine the detainee/PW process to account for the new realities of our operations and the domestic political angle. My IBTS on PW STILL revolves around the PW cage (up to the DIV level on rare occasions) and what I think is WWII legacy documentation. If there is ONE thing the MPs will always have to deal with operationally is just that, PWs.

Edited for clarity and wording. Couple of typos also.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

NinerSix- You have raised a good point.  My list of overlooked MP field skills was not meant to be exhaustive.

BTW- you would be shocked by some of the road moves that I have seen recently.....

 

[Dissident]

BTW- you would be shocked by some of the road moves that I have seen recently.....

No I would not.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'd take it a step farther - in many ways military police have become garrison police.  The uniforms, equipment, and vehicles cast the image of civilian community police -  the focus of duties also seems to match.

If the RCMP were given the garrison policing mandate from the MPs, you could expect that there would be RCMP Act and NDA changes that would make irrelevant what the RCMP want to allow.

A transfer of mandate should also come with a transfer of resources (ie. the RCMP would get PYs, and a selection process would allow military pers to transfer to the RCMP and fill those positions).

Notwithstanding garb811's disdainful view of my perception and experience I think you are on the right track.

I think our Military Police need to be responsible for inter alia garrison/base security (which is a pretty serious requirement in a few places) - all aspects of physical security, for prisoner handling (PWs in operations, service prisons in Canada), for route and traffic control and for computer security - about which my experience is almost certainly greater and more recent that garb811's and my perception of which leads me to conclude that there is a real, serious and inadequately met (not unmet, just insufficient resources assigned) threat to DND.

I think we should do as you suggest - transfer some (real police (criminal investigation, domestic violence, etc)) responsibilities and some PYs to the RCMP and make them partners with the MPs in maintaining good order and discipline and security in DND and the CF.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Why do MPs still do embassy work?  Should DFAIT not grow up at some point and hire their own security guards?

They did.  My father did it for 35+ years from the early 50s to 89.  Ottawa, London, Moscow, Rome, Stockholm, Kuala Lumpur, Washington, Baghdad, Islamabad, Belgrade, Athens, back to Ottawa for 4 years doing TDs to China, Baghdad (again), Pretoria, Dublin, et al.

Often he was only guard, un-armed and not always in a friendly place.  I would have been glad to get a job like he had.  Unfortuantely when he retired I believe he said there were around three of classification left in Foreign Affaires and the RCMP and MPs (later to be MP only) were taking over the jobs.