Measures against a officer cadet

[gwp]

A civilian volunteer (former officer or specialist) has no legal authority to command an active member of the Canadian Forces.
If this is happening it is a complete failure in leadership in the unit.

There is a precision of language required here.

The Commanding Officer of all CIC Branch members in a Region is the Regional Cadet Officer.  Those appointed as CO of Cadet Corps/Squadrons supervise the other officers, and paid CIs on the slate.  Volunteers are directed by the Corps CO and supervised by the League and Sponsoring Committee and serve at the pleasure of the assigned CO.  Members of theCF have oversight of CIs and volunteers.  However,  a paid CI may be appointed to be the Officer of Primary Interest or Officer in Charge and thereby provide direction to a member of the CF (just as any Civil Servant at DND may).  While a Corps CO may deal with issues (i.e. send an officer home from a training night who had clearly been drinking at dinner and maintain a record of the action) any formal disciplinary action must be taken by the Commanding Officer RCSU on the recommendation of the Corps CO supported by a record of performance.   

It is also noteworthy at the CO of a Cadet Corps is responsible to the CO RCSU and responsive - by way of answer to the Chairman of the Corps sponsoring Committee representing the Supervising League that is responsible for volunteers.  If the chairman of the sponsoring committee is not satisfied with the performance of a Corps CO they may take the matter to the Provincial League executive that can take the issue forward to the CO RCSU. 

 

[jpjohnsn]

I do agree that I should shed more light to this situation. I was an officer released into SuppRes (Voluntary) and have taken up a league ID in my local cadet unit to help a bit with my expertise. It is true that I am put in an authoritative position in a constant manner over the OCdt.

That doesn't really shed too much light.  What's this "authoritative position"?

The problem is there are individuals that have gone through all the loopholes to get itself in the system. I'm not positive if you know of the CIC process, but I was quite a shock when I heard the story as well.

I'm positive that I know the process and I'd LOVE to hear about these "loopholes".  That the enrollment process involves both their cadet detachment/RCSU and CFRC, it would be interesting to see where the cracks are.

Back on topic is that I will provide documentation to the cadet unit CO and it will be up to him on what he would like to do next regarding the mbr.

Here's the problem.  As a CV, it doesn't matter if you are in the CF or a pure civilian, you don't have standing to run anything. 

From the CATO:
"The commanding officer of a cadet corps or cadet camp may authorize volunteers, including members of the Canadian Forces, to assist cadet instructors and civilian instructors in cadet activities, provided such assistance is under the supervision and direction of either a cadet instructor or civilian instructor." 

As a CV, you're a helper, not a boss.  You start getting involved providing any documentation or anything like that, you risk laying the groundwork for a big, fat grievance and, perhaps, the termination of your CV agreement.

There is a precision of language required here.

<snip> However,  a paid CI may be appointed to be the Officer of Primary Interest or Officer in Charge and thereby provide direction to a member of the CF (just as any Civil Servant at DND may).

Yes, let's be precise in our language.  The CATO says at generalist CIs at the corps level "are employed to instruct and supervise cadets and may be given overall responsibility for an activity or group of cadets. "  This clearly indicates that their "authority" - to use the term loosely - is directed towards the cadets and not to CF members - even numpty OCdts.  I once had the CO of our RCSU as a CV at my squadron teaching flying scholarship classes to our cadets when I was CO (me a Capt, he a LCol) and he made it quite clear that, as a Civilian Volunteer, his 3 hoops were at home when he was with us.

 

[CombatDoc]

OK, looking to a RegF example.... how would the CAF describe the relationship / authority of a civilian employee who runs... say clothing stores... and the Cpls that do his bidding?

I'd call them the supervisor or Clothing Stores IC. But, they are not in Command of CAF members nor are they the OC of clothing stores.  CO of the Svc Bn is in command, not the civvie in clothing stores with supervisory functions.

 

[CombatDoc]

Having said that, I'd say immaturity is a constant in young officers in every MOSID/branch.

I'm glad that you have avoided making sweeping generalizations.

 

[my72jeep]

That doesn't really shed too much light.  What's this "authoritative position"?I'm positive that I know the process and I'd LOVE to hear about these "loopholes".  That the enrollment process involves both their cadet detachment/RCSU and CFRC, it would be interesting to see where the cracks are.Here's the problem.  As a CV, it doesn't matter if you are in the CF or a pure civilian, you don't have standing to run anything. 

From the CATO:
"The commanding officer of a cadet corps or cadet camp may authorize volunteers, including members of the Canadian Forces, to assist cadet instructors and civilian instructors in cadet activities, provided such assistance is under the supervision and direction of either a cadet instructor or civilian instructor." 

As a CV, you're a helper, not a boss.  You start getting involved providing any documentation or anything like that, you risk laying the groundwork for a big, fat grievance and, perhaps, the termination of your CV agreement.
Yes, let's be precise in our language.  The CATO says at generalist CIs at the corps level "are employed to instruct and supervise cadets and may be given overall responsibility for an activity or group of cadets. "  This clearly indicates that their "authority" - to use the term loosely - is directed towards the cadets and not to CF members - even numpty OCdts.  I once had the CO of our RCSU as a CV at my squadron teaching flying scholarship classes to our cadets when I was CO (me a Capt, he a LCol) and he made it quite clear that, as a Civilian Volunteer, his 3 hoops were at home when he was with us.

One Question? Have you ever worked with a Cadet Unit not in an urban center? some where 200/300km from the closest Tim Horton's? 700km from your Det, or the closest base?

 

[jpjohnsn]

One Question? Have you ever worked with a Cadet Unit not in an urban center? some where 200/300km from the closest Tim Horton's? 700km from your Det, or the closest base?

If you'd been paying attention, you'd've noticed in one of my first posts I mentioned that you'd sometimes find "CIs" working in admin or supply because uniformed staff just isn't avaliable.  But the only mentions in regulations of civilians working as corps staff has them as instructors (which is what the I in CI stands for) or, in the case of civilian volunteers, as assistants to uniformed staff or CIs.  Any warm body in uniform at the corps level, is higher up the food chain than a CV.

That having been said, if the CV or CI has former service, a smart person would take advantage of any advice or expertise they could glean from them but that stops well short of putting that civilian in charge of any service member.

 

[my72jeep]

If you'd been paying attention, you'd've noticed in one of my first posts I mentioned that you'd sometimes find "CIs" working in admin or supply because uniformed staff just isn't avaliable.  But the only mentions in regulations of civilians working as corps staff has them as instructors (which is what the I in CI stands for) or, in the case of civilian volunteers, as assistants to uniformed staff or CIs.  Any warm body in uniform at the corps level, is higher up the food chain than a CV.

That having been said, if the CV or CI has former service, a smart person would take advantage of any advice or expertise they could glean from them but that stops well short of putting that civilian in charge of any service member.

So I take that as a No.

 

[gwp]

One Question? Have you ever worked with a Cadet Unit not in an urban center? some where 200/300km from the closest Tim Horton's? 700km from your Det, or the closest base?

Yes, and why should it make any difference to how a Cadet Corps is led and supervised?  Most cadet corps/squadrons are a long way from any CF Base.  The cadet detachment model is the exception. 

 

[my72jeep]

My last Cadet unit was 700km from my det and the closest base. I was the CO for 9 years in a row. 4 of said years I was the only CIC. CI's and CV's were all I had so don't tell me what the rules say, my HQ was ok with it. In my time I have seen the det remove a CO twice and put a Civi in Command because there was no other CIC Capable of command. Now the Civi's were  retired MWO's and agreed to join the CIC, and were fast tracked in.

 

[gwp]

My last Cadet unit was 700km from my det and the closest base. I was the CO for 9 years in a row. 4 of said years I was the only CIC. CI's and CV's were all I had so don't tell me what the rules say, my HQ was ok with it. In my time I have seen the det remove a CO twice and put a Civi in Command because there was no other CIC Capable of command. Now the Civi's were  retired MWO's and agreed to join the CIC, and were fast tracked in.

And that is how it should work. Good on you.  But more correctly you were the only member of the CF for four years and you supervised the CI's and CVs who had no authority except that which came by way of your direction.  The civilian CO was not in command in the same way a member of the CF is not in command of a cadet corps and as the civilian paid CI as OIC (Officer in Charge) his authority to direct anyone else would be the same as any other civilian operating within DND.  Well done to those retired MWOs who agreed to re-muster in the CF as members of the CIC Branch. 

It might also be worth knowing the the Cadet Service of Canada was absolutely no different in its establishment or place in the Canadian Army than COATS and/or the CIC is today within the CAF.  It recruited from the same pool of talent (a large number of school teachers at one time) along with retired members, former cadets, parents, and anyone else in the community interested in supporting Army Cadets.    There were two courses of instruction the 7 week "Grade A Certificate - Cadet Instructor"  and a 4 week Chief Instructor Course as that was the title given to the senior officer at a Cadet Corps.  The less precise misnomer "Commanding Officer" came with integration.

 

[myself.only]

I'm glad that you have avoided making sweeping generalizations.

Guilty.
Yes. I do believe that immaturity is a constant concern when training 19 year olds to lead, and no branch or trade has a secret stash of wise-beyond-their-years 19 year olds. :nod:

 

[Pusser]

I had a chat one day with a JAG lawyer on the whole subject of civilians vs CF when it comes to command vs supervision.  The gist of the situation is this:

Can a civilian supervise a CF member?  Yes.  There are several good examples of senior civilians supervising junior CF members in orderly rooms, stores sections, etc, accross the CF.  Civilians can even write and sign PERs as reporting officers, reviewing officers, etc.

Can a civilian "command" a CF member?  No.  Only a superior officer/NCO can exercise command authority and issue "orders."

HOWEVER, the way it actually works is that by placing CF members under the supervision, of civilians, the CF chain of command is ordering the CF member to follow the direction of the civilian.  In other words, I have to do what my civilian boss tells me to do, because the CDS has told me to do what the civilian says.

 

[my72jeep]

And that is how it should work. Good on you.  But more correctly you were the only member of the CF for four years and you supervised the CI's and CVs who had no authority except that which came by way of your direction.  The civilian CO was not in command in the same way a member of the CF is not in command of a cadet corps and as the civilian paid CI as OIC (Officer in Charge) his authority to direct anyone else would be the same as any other civilian operating within DND.  Well done to those retired MWOs who agreed to re-muster in the CF as members of the CIC Branch. 

It might also be worth knowing the the Cadet Service of Canada was absolutely no different in its establishment or place in the Canadian Army than COATS and/or the CIC is today within the CAF.  It recruited from the same pool of talent (a large number of school teachers at one time) along with retired members, former cadets, parents, and anyone else in the community interested in supporting Army Cadets.    There were two courses of instruction the 7 week "Grade A Certificate - Cadet Instructor"  and a 4 week Chief Instructor Course as that was the title given to the senior officer at a Cadet Corps.  The less precise misnomer "Commanding Officer" came with integration.

The Civilian CO had OCDT/2LT's. under them and had full Authority over them. One of them took 3 months to enroll the other took a bit over 5.

 

[myself.only]

The Civilian CO had CDT/2LT's. under them and had full Authority over them.

I'm sure it worked that way.
But to be honest it sounds more like "command by gentlemen's agreement" and I don't think that would have held up to any serious legal scrutiny if it came down to a grievance / investigation.

As for rural v. urban... while I am from an urban centre, I really don't think it's a decisive factor for staffing... definitely no easy fix just because you're not in the boonies. Corps are still pretty much dependent on local resources and networking. Seems that if the CO knows people with military interests and relatively good health and some free time, the Corps has staff. Possibly spouse or ex-cadets who haven't left town. Either way, unless they come from inside the program it's a matter of "hey I know somebody."

Not surprising of course. Wasn't that long ago that Det sent me a survey asking how many responses we'd seen as a result of the CIC recruitment campaign. Hard to complete when you're laughing so hard.  Responses?  Zero. And the survey was the first evidence any of us had seen of any campaign.
Not sure where / how they thought DND or the League was getting the word out with any energy to earn the term "campaign". And that hasn't changed.

 

[my72jeep]

As for rural v. urban... while I am from an urban centre, I really don't think it's a decisive factor for staffing... definitely no easy fix just because you're not in the boonies. Corps are still pretty much dependent on local resources and networking. Seems that if the CO knows people with military interests and relatively good health and some free time, the Corps has staff. Possibly spouse or ex-cadets who haven't left town. Either way, unless they come from inside the program it's a matter of "hey I know somebody."

Town of 3000 No Scouts, Guides, Beavers, browines, Why you ask? 10 people got tired of running everything. My town suffers from Volunteer apathy, Parents work 12 hour shifts, if they work. All a youth program to them is free child care or a chance to go to the bar/coffee shop. As for local people with a Military intrest yes had two of them a couple they scared me, he told me about his time as a Green Beret in Nam ( funny his birth date was 1976) and she kept asking when does she get her gun issued.
With a Urban unit you have an influx of new bodies to recruit from if not from other units. My point is in a large Urban center the Book works, but far away from the Det. you may at times need to use the book as a guide, not as bible.

 

[George Wallace]

I had a chat one day with a JAG lawyer on the whole subject of civilians vs CF when it comes to command vs supervision.  The gist of the situation is this:

Can a civilian supervise a CF member?  Yes.  There are several good examples of senior civilians supervising junior CF members in orderly rooms, stores sections, etc, accross the CF.  Civilians can even write and sign PERs as reporting officers, reviewing officers, etc.

Can a civilian "command" a CF member?  No.  Only a superior officer/NCO can exercise command authority and issue "orders."

HOWEVER, the way it actually works is that by placing CF members under the supervision, of civilians, the CF chain of command is ordering the CF member to follow the direction of the civilian.  In other words, I have to do what my civilian boss tells me to do, because the CDS has told me to do what the civilian says.

Also, when you look at the CAF hierarchy/Org Chart; who ultimately is in charge of the CAF?  Civilians in Parliament.

 

[myself.only]

With a Urban unit you have an influx of new bodies to recruit from if not from other units.

I can understand how one might think that, but this hasn't been my experience.
Our most reliable source of potential officers remain the people who have heard of the program: ex-cadets.  So Corps size seems more influential than city/town size and in an urban centre we're hardly the only unit in town so Corps sizes remain fairly modest (40-60) over the years.

 

[gcclarke]

I had a chat one day with a JAG lawyer on the whole subject of civilians vs CF when it comes to command vs supervision.  The gist of the situation is this:

Can a civilian supervise a CF member?  Yes.  There are several good examples of senior civilians supervising junior CF members in orderly rooms, stores sections, etc, accross the CF.  Civilians can even write and sign PERs as reporting officers, reviewing officers, etc.

Can a civilian "command" a CF member?  No.  Only a superior officer/NCO can exercise command authority and issue "orders."

HOWEVER, the way it actually works is that by placing CF members under the supervision, of civilians, the CF chain of command is ordering the CF member to follow the direction of the civilian.  In other words, I have to do what my civilian boss tells me to do, because the CDS has told me to do what the civilian says.

I used to be in a position that didn't have a single person in uniform in the chain of command between myself and the Governor-General. My boss was a civvie, the project manager was a civvy, the DG was a civvy, the ADM was a civvy, the DM was a civvy, the minister was a civvie, the PM a civvy.

The way some folks in this thread are going on, you'd think that I couldn't be legally told to do a gosh darned thing.

 

[jpjohnsn]

I used to be in a position that didn't have a single person in uniform in the chain of command between myself and the Governor-General. My boss was a civvie, the project manager was a civvy, the DG was a civvy, the ADM was a civvy, the DM was a civvy, the minister was a civvie, the PM a civvy.

The way some folks in this thread are going on, you'd think that I couldn't be legally told to do a gosh darned thing.

No, not at all.  I think people are missing something important here though.  The civilians hired a cadet corps are not hired to fill management positions.  The job title isn't civilian employee - it's civilian instructor.  Their job description is in their name.  They are hired to help supplement the training staff by instructing cadets.  Leeway is given for them to fill other spots where uniformed staff is in short supply but they are not hired to replace uniformed staff.  Indeed, if they are filling an establishment position on a corps slate because there isn't enough CIC staff, any warm body in uniform transferring in bumps them out.  It doesn't matter if you were the CDS in your former life, if your corps' cadet RSM retired yesterday and was sworn in today, your contract would be terminated before the ink on their attestation paperwork was dry.

Civilian volunteers have even less standing.  They are specifically engaged to assist uniformed staff.  Having them in charge of a CIC officer - regardless of rank, is like taking a candy-striper at a hospital an making them in charge of a bunch of nurses.

The civvie who is hired to be a supervisor in supply is hired to run supply and all of their duties and responsibilities and who reports to whom is all laid out.  Civilian instructors are hired, in the main, to backfill CIC slots at the corps level.  They are not hired to head sections or be in charge of uniformed staff.  They are not that kind of civilian employee.

My72Jeep's experience is not one that should be an example of what can or should happen at a cadet unit.  That was a unique situation where the unit would have folded otherwise and was only meant to be a temporary situation while the uniform staff was being reestablished.  A regular, healthy, cadet unit is quite another matter.

 

[CombatDoc]

I used to be in a position that didn't have a single person in uniform in the chain of command between myself and the Governor-General. My boss was a civvie, the project manager was a civvy, the DG was a civvy, the ADM was a civvy, the DM was a civvy, the minister was a civvie, the PM a civvy.

The way some folks in this thread are going on, you'd think that I couldn't be legally told to do a gosh darned thing.

Were you wearing a CF uniform at the time?  If so, then you definitely had a military CoC since you were a CF mbr.  FWIW, the DM is always a civilian, ditto for the MND and the PM.  Otherwise, we would call that a dictatorship which Canada most assuredly is not.