Measures against a officer cadet

[Candari]

I'm currently a volunteer with a cadet unit. An OCdt with a position to assist in my role continuously fails to meet deadline and taskings that I have given him. I was told by a more senior officer at the unit that he has been failing to do his taskings for the past 2 years. Though countless conversations with the individual to understand what his problems are and try to assist him, no official documentation were put in record.

This OCdt was always put off the hook simply because he was "untrained." In a recent event, I assigned a task which I explained to him extensively on how to complete the task, and the knowledge necessary to complete the task. However, he still failed to complete it (He did not even start the task). I have given him the benefit of the doubt before, and given him an time extension, at which he still did not do the task. After which, an discussion was made between the two of us, and a more senior officer to facilitate the conversation. And even after that discussion, he still continuously fails to meet tasking expectations.

All in all, an officer that does not do any of the taskings that was assigned to him, fails to meet expectations and even after conversations for 2 years on this individual to try to improve him. What action should we take against this individual? Would a DND 2826 on Recorded Warning be suffice? Or would there be heavier measures?

 

[George Wallace]

Sounds like he should be "let go".  Get rid of the dead wood.  If he serves no purpose other than collecting a cheque, is incapable of doing the most basic of tasks, RELEASE him from all those commitments and send him on his merry way.  He is an administrative burden that will affect your whole Corps. 

 

[Candari]

How should I go about doing that? If the member refuses to "sign off," what should be taken to move him out?

 

[catalyst]

A recorded warning given by a civilian volunteer is a grievance in waiting

This Officer Cadets' personnel issue(s) should be dealt with by the CO through the RCSU. Perhaps you could chat with the CO.


I agree that "we" need to cut the deadwood but it has to be done properly by the right people.

 

[my72jeep]

An Officer Cadet in the CIC has 3 years to complete BOQ, If he has been there that long and is still untrained fire him for failure to meet the minimums of his contract.

 

[Pusser]

A recorded warning given by a civilian volunteer is a grievance in waiting

This Officer Cadets' personnel issue(s) should be dealt with by the CO through the RCSU. Perhaps you could chat with the CO.


I agree that "we" need to cut the deadwood but it has to be done properly by the right people.

Agreed.  A civilian volunteer can do absolutely nothing in this scenario, other than register a complaint (and perhaps document incidents).  The CO needs to deal with this and the OP needs to step back.  Let the CF handle CF members

 

[X Royal]

I'm currently a volunteer with a cadet unit. An OCdt with a position to assist in my role continuously fails to meet deadline and taskings that I have given him.

Am I the only one seeing a problem with this process?
At no time should a civilian volunteer be in the position to give deadlines and tasks to a member of the Canadian Forces.
These should be issued through the unit chain of command.
If the unit's chain of command is allowing this, it is a weakness at the command level.
Also a civilian volunteer should play no part in deciding what if any discipline is to be taken. Reporting the facts to the chain of command is fine but beyond that it is a responsibility of the chain of command to deal with.

 

[Candari]

Re: ArmySailer & Pusser
Understood, I will have all documentations ready for the CO of the unit to deal with.

Re: X Royal
The CO of my unit is simply placing performance before ranks. Besides, an OCdt that is untrained (and failed BOTC) is no better than a civie. However, I do understand where this is coming from..

 

[X Royal]

Re: X Royal
Besides, an OCdt that is untrained (and failed BOTC) is no better than a civie.

Better as in performance, maybe no.
As a member of the Canadian Forces a OCdt has responsibilities and can be held accountable in a ways a civilian can not be.
In a military organization the chain of command must be followed to maintain order.
Civilian volunteers are not part of the chain but can be valuable assets to these units.

 

[JesseWZ]

What about in combined DND headquarters, or Fleet Maintenance Facilities, TEME's etc where there are a large number of both? I understand working at TEME is not a volunteer job, but at the end of the day many times the Chain of Command includes civilians...

 

[myself.only]

Am I the only one seeing a problem with this process?
At no time should a civilian volunteer be in the position to give deadlines and tasks to a member of the Canadian Forces.
These should be issued through the unit chain of command.
If the unit's chain of command is allowing this, it is a weakness at the command level.

Well, I'd have to say: it depends. It could be that the OCdt has been tasked by his chain of command to support the civilian volunteer who is acting as a SME or running fund-raising or some other activity that falls within the bailiwick of the support committee.  So, for instance, the OCdt is booking a classroom in an armoury, attending a briefing, passing on info from the civilian volunteer, ensuring mil training aids are drawn, showing up to supervise cadets helping or participating in an event, etc. So while the OCdt is operating within his TOR from the CO, he is taking direction from the civilian volunteer ramrodding the event... and allegedly, in this case not getting tasks done.

Also a civilian volunteer should play no part in deciding what if any discipline is to be taken. Reporting the facts to the chain of command is fine but beyond that it is a responsibility of the chain of command to deal with.

Agree 100%.

 

[jpjohnsn]

I'm currently a volunteer with a cadet unit. An OCdt with a position to assist in my role

Just out of curiosity, and for the sake of clarity, what's your "role"?

 

[my72jeep]

Am I the only one seeing a problem with this process?
At no time should a civilian volunteer be in the position to give deadlines and tasks to a member of the Canadian Forces.
These should be issued through the unit chain of command.
If the unit's chain of command is allowing this, it is a weakness at the command level.
Also a civilian volunteer should play no part in deciding what if any discipline is to be taken. Reporting the facts to the chain of command is fine but beyond that it is a responsibility of the chain of command to deal with.

In the cadet world a Civilian can and will be put in command over a junior CIC Officer when that Civi is a 1) a Specialist with knowledge over the officer ie  Pilot biathlon coach or 2) a former CIC or Officer that has retired and has come back as a CI. and the unit is using them to fill a void.

 

[X Royal]

In the cadet world a Civilian can and will be put in command over a junior CIC Officer when that Civi is a 1) a Specialist with knowledge over the officer ie  Pilot biathlon coach or 2) a former CIC or Officer that has retired and has come back as a CI. and the unit is using them to fill a void.

A civilian volunteer (former officer or specialist) has no legal authority to command an active member of the Canadian Forces.
If this is happening it is a complete failure in leadership in the unit.

 

[myself.only]

A civilian volunteer (former officer or specialist) has no legal authority to command an active member of the Canadian Forces.

Agreed... but I could see situations wherein a Civilian volunteer could be given tactical control over an officer(s) assigned to a task.

And I believe a specialist would legally have some functional authority over an officer possessing less qualifications in that specialty... so a civilian volunteer employed for his Level 2 Kayak instructor qual would have authority over the CIC Level 1 Kayak instructor within the limits of his duties as a kayak instructor.  Again, that's not command but the CIC is not the one calling all of the shots.

I can't speak to the second case: any practice of putting a current member of the CAF under the command of a former member of the CAF.

 

[my72jeep]

A civilian volunteer (former officer or specialist) has no legal authority to command an active member of the Canadian Forces.
If this is happening it is a complete failure in leadership in the unit.

I did not say it was legal, I said it's common. Who would you want making decisions a 19 year old 10 day wonder with 30 day's in or a former Major cold weather instructor?

 

[jpjohnsn]

Agreed... but I could see situations wherein a Civilian volunteer could be given tactical control over an officer(s) assigned to a task.

And I believe a specialist would legally have some functional authority over an officer possessing less qualifications in that specialty... so a civilian volunteer employed for his Level 2 Kayak instructor qual would have authority over the CIC Level 1 Kayak instructor within the limits of his duties as a kayak instructor.  Again, that's not command but the CIC is not the one calling all of the shots.

I don't think "tactical" is the word you are looking for.

Okay, let's clear up a few things first.  The terms Civilian Volunteer and Civilian Instructor are not completely interchangeable.. 

Civilian Instructors, at the corps level, "shall only be employed in instances where there are no qualified Canadian Forces (CF) members available to fill a position. In the event that a CI is filling an established position and a qualified CF member subsequently becomes available, the CI shall be advised that they are to relinquish the position in favour of the CF member."    Again, at the corps level, there are Generalist CIs (GCIs) that are employed to instruct and supervise cadets and may be given overall responsibility for an activity or group of cadets.  The other is Specialist CI who is occasionally brought in to instruct because they have a specific skill or qualifications no found in an available member of the CCO.

For a GCI, typically the activities they are given responsibility for a things like teams or specific aspects of training - especially if there isn't a CF member available to supervise.  They should not be employed in a position where they have CF members under their direction on an ongoing basis.

For specialist CIs, like pilots or anything where safety is concerned, CF members would follow their directions and instructions.  This is for a specific activity and short-termed.

For civilian volunteers (CV): "The commanding officer of a cadet corps or cadet camp may authorize volunteers, including members of the Canadian Forces, to assist cadet instructors and civilian instructors in cadet activities, provided such assistance is under the supervision and direction of either a cadet instructor or civilian instructor."  They assist, they aren't in charge of anyone or any activity. 

If a CV is also a member of the sponsoring committee, the hat they wear is dependent on which side of the fence they are working at that moment.  If they are working for the CO on a cadet activity, they're a CV.  If they are working for the sponsoring committee they aren't.  And though corps staff is directed to cooperate with the SC on things like findraising, members of the SC are in no way in authority over any member of corps staff.

Any way you slice it, a corps-level CV has no authority over an OCdt.

 

[GR66]

I worked in a Base Orderly Room where several of the Section Heads were civilians with both military and civilian staff reporting to them.  This was specifically due to the fact that the civilians remained in the departments for a much longer period of time and retained a great deal more corporate knowledge than would a military staff member posted in for a comparatively short period of time.

That being said, there is a MILITARY chain of command in place to deal with issues of discipline and performance.  I don't see anything unusual (in my limited experience) with a civilian member being assigned to oversee and give taskings to a military member, however I agree that it's the Military CoC'd responsibility to deal with these performance issues.

 

[myself.only]

I don't think "tactical" is the word you are looking for.

Well it's not my term , I'm referring to a specific, limited type of command relationship (TACON) providing direction and controlling employment of resources assigned to a task (as opposed to assigning the task in the first place, for instance).

Having said that, I think your detailed explanation nailed it.  When employed by the CO, not in the capacity of a Specialist CI or a support committee member, a CV would have no authority over a member of the CAF, including OCdts.

But in the absence of more info from the OP... this discussion is marking time, no?

 

[jeffb]

There is a big difference between having the authority to provide direction and being in the Chain of Command. At no point is any civilian in the Chain of Command. If the CO is unavailable, command does not fall to the CO's secretary it falls to the 2I/C and all the way down the Chain of Command to the most junior of officers. While there are times where it may be appropriate for a civilian to provide some supervision and oversight of a military member, they are NOT, nor can they ever be, in their Chain of Command by virtue of their lack of command authority such as an officers commission.