Light Support Weapons & Infantry Automatic Rifles

[vonGarvin]

The FN Minimi, if you search for Storr's articles, are the worst at providing real suppressive fire.  I believe this is because it is a machine gun employed as an automatic belt-fed rifle.

To add to the above, the shortening of the C9 barrel only reduced its effective range and reduced accuracy as well.  Also, the magazine feed (really, who has ever used that?) only means that the C9 cannot be used in the SF kit as an emergency replacement for the C6 when it's down.
And to clarify on the whole "accuracy" thing mentioned by someone else, the role of a machine gun is typically "area neutralizing fire".  Yes, it's not pin-point accuracy, but it does need to hit the area you intend to hit.  There needs to be some dispersion, but it's not such that you need even more fire to get the intended effects.
In all my years in the infantry, I have rarely seen machine guns employed properly.  That in spite of our very good doctrine on how to employ them.

 

[KevinB]

More and more nations (Denmark, Germany) are going to a 7.62mm SAW/LMG

The mag feed on the M249/Minimi,C9 is a waste.  Probably only use of the Mk46 was getting rid of that aspect.


The unfortunate thing about the IAR/M249 argument was that for the most part the USMC guns where clapped out , so someone broke ass gun is obviously not going to be as impressive as someone else's new gun.

  That said, the USMC is retaining M249's, its not a 1:1 replacement of the SAW.

 

[daftandbarmy]

More and more nations (Denmark, Germany) are going to a 7.62mm SAW/LMG

Good show on the Bren!

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/weapons/lightweapons/brengun.htm

Farley Mowat, a platoon commander in the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment, wrote about the first time he used a Bren Gun in action in Sicily in his book And No Birds Sang. His company had been ordered to withdraw:

Alex (the company commander) left us Nine Platoon's three Brens to free their crews from the weight so they could help with the wounded. Six light machine guns gave me a lot of fire power...or would have done except that we only had one or two magazines remaining for each gun.

Wriggling forward to the edge of the knoll, I passed the word to shoot at anything that moved - but to make every bullet count. Behind me I could hear stones rattling as Eight and Nine platoons broke cover and began their rush up the steep slopes. Instantly the metallic hail from an MG-42 swept over our heads in vicious pursuit of our retreating comrades.

I had my binoculars to my eyes at that moment and by the sheerest fluke glimpsed a flicker of flame and a filmy wisp of smoke coming from a pile of brush on the far side of the road. Mitchuk was lying next to me behind his section's Bren, and I grabbed his arm and tried to make his see what I had seen but he could not locate the target. After a moment he rolled over and pushed the butt of the gun toward me.

"You take 'em, Junior!" he said...and grinned.

The feel of the Bren filled me with the same high excitement that had been mine when, as a boy during October days in Saskatchewan, I had raised my shotgun from the concealment of a bulrush blind and steadied it on an incoming flight of greenhead mallards.

There was a steady throbbing against my shoulder as the Bren hammered out a burst. A stitching of dust spurts appeared in front of the patch of brush and walked on into it. I fired burst after burst until the gun went silent with a heavy clunk as the bolt drove home on an empty chamber. Quickly Mitchuk slapped off the empty magazine and rammed a fresh one into place.

"Give 'em another!" he yelled exultantly. "You're onto the fuckers good!"

Maybe I was. It is at least indisputable that after I had emptied the second magazine there was no further firing nor any sign of life from the brush pile. On the other hand, I never actually saw a human target, so I cannot be haunted by the memory of men lying dead or dying behind their gun. And for that I am grateful.

 

[Kirkhill]

Perhaps the Czech's were on to something with the top feed mag?

Lower profile for the gunner?  Ease of swapping out mags without losing the sight picture? Works well for both a gun with just the gunner or with a gunner and a loader?  With enough mags and a loader maintains sustained fire comparable to a belt fed GPMG with a loader?  Hot swap barrel?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Perhaps the Czech's were on to something with the top feed mag?

Lower profile for the gunner?  Ease of swapping out mags without losing the sight picture? Works well for both a gun with just the gunner or with a gunner and a loader?  With enough mags and a loader maintains sustained fire comparable to a belt fed GPMG with a loader?  Hot swap barrel?

Gravity fed mag.... this helps reduce stoppages

 

[KevinB]

and block optics....

 

[Kirkhill]

I believe the Bren's sights were offset.

On the other hand why not cant the mag 15 to 45 degrees to the left (or right for lefties) off of TDC (Top Dead Centre).  You could still fit a rail across the top of the receiver. No?

 

[Kirkhill]

Other Bren kit:

100 Rd Drum

Bren SF

Bren Anti-Aircraft

Note loader and total of 12x 30 rd mags for 360.

 

[Old Sweat]

The Bren's sights were mounted to the left of the weapon. Even though I am left-handed, I enjoyed firing it and classifying as a first class shot in recruit training. (It went out of service in my regular regiment a few months later.) For all its good points, I am not sure we made best use of it as the main source of firepower in a rifle section. In the Second World War it could not match the MG 42 in volume of fire, and our doctrine adopted from the Brits seemed to be based on economizing on ammunition and not on winning the fire fight.

Sorry for the intrusion by a non-expert.

 

[Kirkhill]

......
Sorry for the intrusion by a non-expert.

;D

 

[daftandbarmy]

We used the Bren L4 version (converted to 7.62mm) in Norway and Northern Ireland.

It was rugged, always worked when you pulled the trigger, and had a wonderful effect when used with AP rounds. The big downside was the age of the weapons, which had been in service since the 1940s and remodelled several times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2_Ve0ksT_I

 

[KevinB]

I believe the Bren's sights were offset.

On the other hand why not cant the mag 15 to 45 degrees to the left (or right for lefties) off of TDC (Top Dead Centre).  You could still fit a rail across the top of the receiver. No?

You could - but the high profile of the mag causes issues at times. 

Beltfed guns are always going to trump mag fed guns for volumes of fire, and the easy of carrying extra ammo.
 
The IAR to me was more of a way the USMC could sneek a carbine into their system, rather than a SAW replacement program.
I believe that the SAW does fill a role, and a role that the IAR does not (suppression).

I also believe that the IAR was a result of myopic viewing of a current combat environment without looking at the totality of requirements.

 

[NavyShooter]

Hmmm....Brens and Tripods....

This one lives on the wall in my office now.  The tripod takes up a bit too much space.

 

[a_majoor]

The laws of physics are always enforced, so I have questions about how a Minimi sized weapon firing a GPMG round deals with recoil? As Infanteer points out, you need to deliver rounds on the target to suppress the target; a wildly jouncing GPMG lite seems to be the wrong way to go.

Do these weapons have some sort of cyclic rate limiter to fire at a much slower RPM rate?

WRT magazine fed support weapons, I have had experience with the FN-C2, and some passing experience with more modern weapons like the SA-80 LSW (just awful) and the Steyr AUG turned into an LSW with the heavy barrel and bipod (interesting, but since it has a 30 round magazine  the gunner has a pretty busy time. Since the Austrian soldiers were experienced with bullpup weapons, watching magazine changes was a bit weird but did not seem to take longer than conventional magazine changes).

 

[daftandbarmy]

Hmmm....Brens and Tripods....

This one lives on the wall in my office now.  The tripod takes up a bit too much space.

OK, you win (as usual)

 

[KevinB]

The laws of physics are always enforced, so I have questions about how a Minimi sized weapon firing a GPMG round deals with recoil? As Infanteer points out, you need to deliver rounds on the target to suppress the target; a wildly jouncing GPMG lite seems to be the wrong way to go.

Muzzle Brakes and Suppressors do a lot to dampen recoil, as well as shock absorbing mounts.

Do these weapons have some sort of cyclic rate limiter to fire at a much slower RPM rate?

No - the Mk48 dances all over -- it is an assault machine gun, not a GPMG.

WRT magazine fed support weapons, I have had experience with the FN-C2, and some passing experience with more modern weapons like the SA-80 LSW (just awful) and the Steyr AUG turned into an LSW with the heavy barrel and bipod (interesting, but since it has a 30 round magazine  the gunner has a pretty busy time. Since the Austrian soldiers were experienced with bullpup weapons, watching magazine changes was a bit weird but did not seem to take longer than conventional magazine changes).

The UK got the Minimi due to the lack of use of their LSW - it is still retained, but does not seem to be used as a Automatic Rifle that much, more of a longer barrel SA80 with bipod, and their 7.62mm DMR is making them, like the Aussies rethink the bullpup (as well as their SOF running more and more of their small arms instruction that focuses on weak side shooting as well, making the bullpup a no go).

I still believe that an LSAT type weapon in a heavier cartridge that has 1200m performance is the way to go on a squad weapon.
7mm CTA with slightly more ballistic performance than the 7x46 Murray.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Looks like the SAS are 'manning up' to 7.62mm for everyone:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2294631/SAS-use-bigger-bullets-kill-enemy-outright-claiming-shoot-wound-policy-lives-risk.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Bring back the rifle group/gun group!

 

[KevinB]

Many SOF units have an arms room concept that allows the shooters to have a few different weapons for different applications.

SAS already have a 7.62mm option in their closest.

The biggest issue the SAS face is their issued 5.56mm bullet is not optimal for the C8CQB and C8SFW weapons.


This is an older comparison - but the UK green bullet often acts like a M995 AP round when hitting tissue

Their issue 155gr FMJ 7.62mm ball round is similar in effect to the US M80 ball.


What they need to do is move to a bullet that produces terminal effects.

 

[Infanteer]

Yowza, look at the wound profiles for those WWII era rounds.  I see why 1250-1400 RPM of the M98 Mauser rounds was such a problem....

 

[KevinB]

Look at the distance though -- very long neck before yaw, and no frag.  It may pass straight thru a chest and only leave a 8mm hole.

Temporary cavity only really causes issues in non elastic tissue (mainly the lungs and spleen).

If you look at the 5.56mm wound profiles from M855 - compared to M80 ball, what would you rather shoot at opponents?

C77 ball seems to have a M855 LN profiel or slightly reduced - from the gel shots I have seen, the jacket seems a little thicker than USGI M855