Light Support Weapons & Infantry Automatic Rifles

[a_majoor]

The USMC is looking to replace/supplement their M249 (C-9 in our terms) LMG with an "Infantry Automatic Rifle". This would be a fully automatic support weapon which is magazine as opposed to belt fed. While something like this was actually offered to the CF when we went over to the C-7 family (and was adopted by the Dutch), more modern versions are now on offer which include such features as firing from the closed bolt in repetition mode, but firing from the open bolt on automatic fire. Since the examples I have seen resemble heavy barreled C-7's, the changeover would be rather simple in terms of training and logistics.

I wonder if the trade off is worth loosing the considerable firepower of the M 249/C-9 firing from a 200 round belt, given the IAR concept fires from a 30 round magazine or the various sorts of 100 round snail drum and "C-Mag" high capacity magazines?

One example is the LWRC Gas Piston Infantry Automatic Rifle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-VX4M_jgSk&feature=related

 

[DirtyDog]

The USMC is looking to replace/supplement their M249 (C-9 in our terms) LMG with an "Infantry Automatic Rifle". This would be a fully automatic support weapon which is magazine as opposed to belt fed. While something like this was actually offered to the CF when we went over to the C-7 family (and was adopted by the Dutch), more modern versions are now on offer which include such features as firing from the closed bolt in repetition mode, but firing from the open bolt on automatic fire. Since the examples I have seen resemble heavy barreled C-7's, the changeover would be rather simple in terms of training and logistics.

I wonder if the trade off is worth loosing the considerable firepower of the M 249/C-9 firing from a 200 round belt, given the IAR concept fires from a 30 round magazine or the various sorts of 100 round snail drum and "C-Mag" high capacity magazines?

One example is the LWRC Gas Piston Infantry Automatic Rifle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-VX4M_jgSk&feature=related

Did you just watch Future Weapons?

 

[MG34]

The USMC is not going to a mag fed LAR, but are satying with a belt fed weapon with no provision for mag loading, the Ultimax LMG is the top contender so far. WRT the piston designs they do not offer a great enough improvement over the existing design to warrant a swtch,they are interesting  but not revolutionary.

 

[the 48th regulator]

More can be found here;

http://www.lwrifles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=175

Future weapons episode;

http://www.lwrifles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=527

I waw it and was great!!

A Big Dileas To the big guy wearing the farmer pants

dileas

tess

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The USMC is not going to a mag fed LAR, but are satying with a belt fed weapon with no provision for mag loading, the Ultimax LMG is the top contender so far. WRT the piston designs they do not offer a great enough improvement over the existing design to warrant a swtch,they are interesting  but not revolutionary.

Glad for that, I had visions of a BAR or C2 lite being sold as the new Uber squad weapon. 

 

[a_majoor]

Various descriptions of the IAR program are floating around, in fact I believe there was a thread on one of these boards discussing an earlier program or experiment where the Marines moved the M249's out of the squads to make them more manouevreble and concentrate the support weapons in their own squad. Another related thread was about a very lightweight belt fed LMG which resembled a C7 with a heavily modified upper receiver (can't remember the name).

http://hqinet001.hqmc.usmc.mil/p&r/concepts/2006/PDF/Chapter%203/Part%202/C&P2006Chap3Part2GroundCombatElementPg153-154InfantryAutoma.pdf

DESCRIPTION
The Infantry Automatic Rifle program seeks to replace the current M249 Squad Automatic Weapon in all infantry battalions.
The IAR will be a non-developmental, 5.56 automatic rifle that is lighter, more durable, and more reliable than the SAW.

 

[DirtyDog]

Another related thread was about a very lightweight belt fed LMG which resembled a C7 with a heavily modified upper receiver (can't remember the name).

Ares Shrike?

http://www.aresdefense.com/index.html

Also, you mentioned a mag fed LMG in the C7 family that was adopted by the Dutch.
Colt Canada LSW?

http://www.coltcanada.com/lsw-page.htm

 

[KevinB]

I am a FIRM beleiver the IAR concept is flawed to the core.

The Mk46 give a lightweight assault LMG -- dont like the M249/C9/Minimi - get the 46 - just dont expect it to put out the fire that the 249 does for a long time (very thing LW barrel) Why on God's green earth do you want to give a MAG fed weapon with a HEAVY barrel out to people? Frick you think we learned from the C2 setup its a BAD idea -- and the Brits learned with the LSW that a bipod and heavier barrel does not make a support weapon, and they just added the Minimi...

Of course this the USMC who refused to adopt a carbine since the Camp Perry bound rifle team folk loved the A2 (TOO LONG) stock and the A2 sight.  (I had a long talk with a USMC LtCol about this issue -- he was pulling out his hair)

Strike -- does not run well

Beta Corp C-Mag -- DO NOT USE THIS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD (AND YOUR AND YOUR TEAMS WELL BEING) -- they SUCK ASS -- even the new ones -- get them dirty and they jam. 



As for the Hk416's - nice guns - I dont think I'd want them issued to the Army - as they'd clean the frick out of it and ruin the tolerances on the rail and pistol -- If I did issue it - you'd need to start punching out officers and NCO's that allready have troops ruining the muzzle crown by scraping it (worse I had one Weapons Tech SGT tell me it was the peel washer  :  - Darwin was rolling in his grave that day) - as they'd probably have troops steel wool friction fit areas of the rail or piston...
  I had a young self important Capt ask me why the "silver ring" was dirty on my rifle once  :  - I said "excuse me sir I dont recall a silver ring" -- he went on to steal more oxygen - and I said - Oh you mean the muzzle crown sir - the most important area on the barrel to ensure the bullet leaves the barrel in a stable trajectory  ;D - he STFU and left.. (I heard he was a BGen now  )


Back to the Hk/Piston debate vice direct gas impingment.

Larry Vickers (ex Delta MSG - helped design the S&B Short Dot and Hk 416 and 417) siad recently at a class I took
Get a piston if any one of the following is true:
1) You shoot a lot of full auto
2) You shoot barrels shorter that 14.5"
3) You shoot a lot suppressed
4) You shoot a variety of bullet weights

The regular army fail that test.
Units that shoot a few thousand rounds a week (each member not the unit for some who missed that..) will do better with one too - as the bolt life will be longer.  However those units also typically answer yes to #2 and #3 on the above...

I've carried a C7/C8/M4 series gun in 7 different countries - and have NEVER ONCE felt undergunned due to the design.
I think Hk has made an excellent mousetrap and I will be very interested to see the results of the next SARP testing.


















 

 

[DirtyDog]

As for the Hk416's - nice guns - I dont think I'd want them issued to the Army - as they'd clean the frick out of it and ruin the tolerances on the rail and pistol -- If I did issue it - you'd need to start punching out officers and NCO's that allready have troops ruining the muzzle crown by scraping it (worse I had one Weapons Tech SGT tell me it was the peel washer  :  - Darwin was rolling in his grave that day) - as they'd probably have troops steel wool friction fit areas of the rail or piston...
  I had a young self important Capt ask me why the "silver ring" was dirty on my rifle once   :  - I said "excuse me sir I dont recall a silver ring" -- he went on to steal more oxygen - and I said - Oh you mean the muzzle crown sir - the most important area on the barrel to ensure the bullet leaves the barrel in a stable trajectory  ;D - he STFU and left.. (I heard he was a BGen now  )

I know this subject has been hashed over several times here, but...

Even as a recruit, I could see the faults of scraping the "silver ring".  I tried to avoid contributing to this arcane practice several times during training and was promptly shown several methods (cleaning rod rotated in a stirring motion to scrape the crown, and another similar approach using the tip of one jaw of the Gerber pliers  ) and shuddered as it was quite obvious the crude improvised tools and approach were doing more then just scraping carbon.  And this was not an uncommon occurrence.  Weapons were never accepted at the vault it the "ring" wasn't 'silver".

It was only late in training that we were told to stop running our weapons 'dry' in the hot, dusty conditons.  I remember being jacked up for having a rifle oozing CLP, yet I never had a stoppage.

 

[a_majoor]

I am a FIRM beleiver the IAR concept is flawed to the core.

Out of interest, which part of the concept is flawed? The desire for a much lighter/smaller support weapon at the Squad level or execution of the various designs proposed to fill that role?

I fully agree that a magazine fed HB version of an existing weapon is not a serious contender today (even if it is as good as the classic BAR). Lightweight LMG's are possible (i.e. the Ultimax 100), something along those lines would seem to fulfill the IAR requirment as stated.
















 
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[KevinB]

In addition to the Ultimax KAC has a nice new toy -- the Stoner LMG  - belt fed goodness with a weight reduction.
The biggest issue of the IAR - is the fact that they admit it CANNOT replace the M249's -- thus its another tool in the toolbox.  Part of the argument is the M249 gunner is too heavy/bulky to be doing entries as part of a stack in CQB - yet you dont solve this by the IAR...  The IAR does not need a QD barrel - as its a auto rifle...  so you have losr its ability to provide suppressive fire (highly overated these days with our given enemies anyway -- but an issue none the less)

Doctrine, the Mission (and necessity) is supposed to drive kit - I do see a need to replace the M249's (and C9's) as most are beat to ratshit -- however the answer to that is a VLMG (Very Light Machinegun) trial.  Not hammering a square into a round hole.

  Next we will be seeing conventional units asking for the Mk48 so they can have a lighter (and cooler) GPMG - missing the fact the Mk48 is a 7.62mm assault MG - not a GP or Medium MG - and it cannot put out the weight of fire that the MAG-58/M240 series/C6 does.

 

[DirtyDog]

I do see a need to replace the M249's (and C9's) as most are beat to ratshit -- however the answer to that is a VLMG (Very Light Machinegun) trial.  Not hammering a square into a round hole.

Can newly manufactured M249/C9's not replace the old ones?  In good repair I always thought it was a decent LMG, no?

How have the A2s held up?

 

[CBshadow]

So I was watching future weapons on discovery the other day and saw a few new weapons that intrigued me so I thought I'd post
LWRC IAR (Infantry automatic rifle)
few neat features
operates closed bolt semi auto or open bolt auto
virtually no excess heat even on bolt of gun after firing
mag fed rather than belt
easiar to operate in close quarters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LWRC_Infantry_Automatic_Rifle

a few others are

Knights armament M110 (sniper rifle)
semi auto
suppressor
thermo optical sight attachment
rapid reload

http://www.knightarmco.com/sr_m_110_suppressor.html

RBS 70 mk 2 missle system
Saab Bofor dynamics
portable/lightweight
longer range higher altitude missiles
one way based laser tracking

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/Capabilities/weapon_systems.htm


These are all sweet in my eyes at least (think canada will ever purchase any of these?....one can only hope)

 

[McG]

So I was watching future weapons on discovery the other day and saw a few new weapons that intrigued me so I thought I'd post
LWRC IAR (Infantry automatic rifle)
few neat features
operates closed bolt semi auto or open bolt auto
virtually no excess heat even on bolt of gun after firing
mag fed rather than belt
easiar to operate in close quarters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LWRC_Infantry_Automatic_Rifle

It is not that much of a new idea.  The Brits call it a light support weapon (LSW) and thiers is based on the SA80.  Colt Canada offers a C7 derived LSW. 

 

[CBshadow]

cool are there any c7's currently in use in canada?

the m110 is an amazing piece of machinery 5 targets 800m away 5 seconds to hit them all thats some serious speed when you need to snipe.

Is there any sniper rifle you know of that can do that made by any other weapons manufacturer? They were saying that the u.s. military was going to impliment the M110 by 2009. 

 

[NomadWarriorSoul]

cool are there any c7's currently in use in canada?

the m110 is an amazing piece of machinery 5 targets 800m away 5 seconds to hit them all thats some serious speed when you need to snipe.

Is there any sniper rifle you know of that can do that made by any other weapons manufacturer? They were saying that the u.s. military was going to impliment the M110 by 2009. 

Umm, yes, there are a few C7s in use here.

Might I suggest the Search Function...?

Little confused as one of the posted stickied topics is a discussion about C7s in this subforum.  ???

 

[CBshadow]

sorry dude dial up living out in the boons makes me not look through everything ill check it out next time on the c7's  I hate muskoka (haha no really)

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The C7 is the standard rifle of the CF, the C7 LSW is not in use.

As for sniper rifles, the Timberwolf was selected a to become the standard sniper rifle and the McMillan TAC50 is still in use? Why replace two good systems such as these?

sorry dude dial up living out in the boons makes me not look through everything ill check it out next time on the c7's  I hate muskoka (haha no really)

understandable but even it takes longer for you to search, I guarantee it will save you a lot of potential problems for those of us that have answered the same question over and over again.

Milnet.Ca Staff

 

[Fusaki]

It is not that much of a new idea.  The Brits call it a light support weapon (LSW) and thiers is based on the SA80.  Colt Canada offers a C7 derived LSW. 

Note quite the same thing though. The LWRC IAR has the option to fire from a closed bolt on semi to deliver better first round accuracy, and then switch to an open bolt system when on automatic to help cooling.  I'm no expert, but I don't think the C7 LSW or the L86 LSW have these functions.  As well, LWRC differs from most AR-15 style rifles in that it uses a gas piston. The C7 LSW has a "High Rate Direct Gas System".

 

[McG]

Note quite the same thing though.

You are correct.  At the concept level though, an LSW is an LSW.