LGBTQ Stuff (split from other political threads)
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IKnowNothing
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To the above- in my definition of "pragmatic acceptance"
A. If Jim from accounting is in such mental duress that only/best way to live a full happy life is to commit to physical re-assignment surgery + hormone therapy to become Jane from accounting, Jane should be able to live her life fully as a woman without her prior life being anyone's business but prospective romantic partners, with the caveat that integrity of sport and public safety demands she not use the physiogical advantages of male puberty to compete in competitive or contact sports.
B. If Tim from accounting does not suffer from the same mental duress or desire to go through the same wholesale change, but is more effeminate than most men and sometimes like to wear dresses to feel pretty, Tim should be protected from descrimination and harassment for such behaviors, but Tim is a man, and has no business being in female only spaces.
C. There is a period in time where its very hard to differentiate between the Jim's at the start of their process and the Tim's- I dont have a good answer for that
D. Neither Jim/Jane nor Tim are a threat to soceity, both should be treated with dignity and respect, and their villification in certain circles is a combination of fear/discomfort and bigotry being inflamed as a political weapon
A. If Jim from accounting is in such mental duress that only/best way to live a full happy life is to commit to physical re-assignment surgery + hormone therapy to become Jane from accounting, Jane should be able to live her life fully as a woman without her prior life being anyone's business but prospective romantic partners, with the caveat that integrity of sport and public safety demands she not use the physiogical advantages of male puberty to compete in competitive or contact sports.
B. If Tim from accounting does not suffer from the same mental duress or desire to go through the same wholesale change, but is more effeminate than most men and sometimes like to wear dresses to feel pretty, Tim should be protected from descrimination and harassment for such behaviors, but Tim is a man, and has no business being in female only spaces.
C. There is a period in time where its very hard to differentiate between the Jim's at the start of their process and the Tim's- I dont have a good answer for that
D. Neither Jim/Jane nor Tim are a threat to soceity, both should be treated with dignity and respect, and their villification in certain circles is a combination of fear/discomfort and bigotry being inflamed as a political weapon
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Brad Sallows
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Good summary. There are certainly some easy-to-identify specific examples of "Jim" - Deirdre McCloskey, Caitlyn Jenner.
Brad Sallows
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The suitability of a unisex washroom substantially depends on the population it serves.
How so? Take the washroom I described earlier at my university. How is that one population dependent? Just stalls, anyone can use them. They’ve desegregated hand washing, but in the year of our lord 2024 I don’t think that’s an issue. There are other segregated washrooms elsewhere, not far away if one prefers those.
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So, trying to make some of the most marginalized and vulnerable people in society safer and feel more accepted is "circling down the drain"?
Brad Sallows
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University students are not highly representative of the population at large.
Before my time, dorms were segregated by building. In my time, dorms were segregated by floor. At some point after my time, dorms became fully integrated (I suspect there were some segregated floors reserved for a time for people who preferred it so). In my time, the segregation of washrooms was respected but otherwise people mixed. (Sidebar: given the state of the average male-accessible washroom then and there or here and now - including places like large stores and malls - I can understand why women would prefer segregation for entirely mundane hygienic reasons.) This all worked, and works, because the population was self-selected for reasonableness and general intelligence and there were almost always too many people around for a creep to do his thing.
Nevertheless, through the winter months (short days) it was common enough for informal arrangements (eg. sign-up sheets) to be made for guys willing to walk girls home from late classes, study sessions, etc. Campus wasn't an entirely safe place. Washrooms in buildings that remained open through evening hours weren't entirely safe, either, but respect for social norms - men didn't go into women's washrooms unbidden - matters, at the margins. Sweep aside enough social constraints and risks increase.
Point is: what works most of the time doesn't necessarily work all of the time, and social constraints do matter (are helpful). The need of a very few people to play out an unusual life doesn't justify encroachments on women's traditional spaces.
Left out of all this discussion about just how horrible people are who want segregated washrooms is all the other stuff: changing rooms, women's shelters, women's prisons, women's and girls' sports, activists who harass lesbians who don't want to sleep with "women-with-penises".
It's surreal that someone can claim to be something he can't define in the first place.
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I'm curious, lets says you are about to send your 8 year old daughter into a washroom but see a stranger about to walk in who stops to hold the door open for your daughter. This stranger looks and dresses like a man, with facial hair and all, they even have a deep voice when they say "after you". Basically by every objective measure they appear 100% to be a man. They see the shocked look on your face, and they say "oh don't worry, I'm a transman" and even show you their ID that says they are "female". Would you have issue sending your daughter into that washroom, and this transman following in behind her?
I'm genuinely curious, because this is what will happen if transmen and transwomen are banned from using the bathroom that aligns with their gender.
In fact, since there is no legal requirement in any bathroom for them to show their ID to you to prove their sex, you would have "people who look like men" going in and out of women bathrooms regularly, and you'd have no ID if they were actually transmen, or just sick cis-men.
Given the number of trans people is so small, but the number of "sick cis-men" is so high (IMO), I think women at large are actually safer allowing transmen to use womens bathrooms than the other way around.
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Like the nightclub washrooms you brought up earlier, it's adults interacting with adults. Generally in high traffic spaces that prevent "creeps" of either sex from preying on the young, drunk, etc... In those settings unisex washrooms with stalls and common hand washing stations make a lot of sense. I don't think most rational people would have a problem with that at all.
Now, make it a jr. high/high school, where the washrooms are also the change and shower rooms, or make it a public pool, mall washroom, etc... Many reasonable people have concerns, and calling them transphobes doesn't make those concerns go away. It makes them even more deeply entrenched, and makes them more likely to go even harder on the extremes.
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You're concocting such a ridiculous argument it falls apart before landing.
If a transman looks, walks and talks like a man, no man is going to question them going into a men's washroom in Dubai let alone Canada. If a transwoman looks, walks and talks like a woman, again, even in Dubai there isn't going to be a problem.
What people are concerned about, and people like you keep blithely dismissing to the potential harm of the broader LGBTQ+ community, is the people who identify as men or women, but are clearly physically not what they identify as. In those cases, most men are not going to be uncomfortable with a male that identifies as a woman, but who still looks like a male, using a men's washroom. The same would broadly apply to females who identify as men, but still look female, using women's washrooms.
When 6'3 bearded, and broad shouldered Sally wants to go into the same washroom as your 8 year old, your kid is likely safe. That said, on the small chance she isn't safe, the consequences are extreme. That's why people are concerned. It isn't the likelihood, it's the severity when it goes wrong. Just like why most people are afraid of sharks, bears, skydiving, etc... You don't make people less worried about those things by pretending they aren't real threats.
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But they aren't real threats.
Of all those 6'3" and broad shouldered Sallys out there your refer to (i.e transwomen who's appearance reveals their transexuality), some may or may not be sexual predators, just as cisgendered "Sams" may or may not be sexual predators. Allowing the Sallys to use the women's bathroom will not increase the likelihood that those that are sexual predators will conduct sexual assault. They aren't going to be discouraged in their deviancy simply because the government says they aren't allowed in women's bathrooms.
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Well, if Tom, Dick, and Harry can call out Sam or Sally before they walk into the washroom following little Suzie, yes it does make a difference.
If Tom, Dick and Harry all end up socially or legally shamed/punished for calling out big bearded men that follow little girls into washrooms, there is an increased risk. Might not be a huge risk, but it is an increased risk.
To be absolutely clear though, there is just as much of a problem with women following young impressionable boys into washrooms as well. Most boys dreamt about sleeping with the hot teacher, but it still illegal/exploitation.
The entire point of having sperate spaces for men/boys and women/girls, is to attempt to mitigate some of the risk factors. As you love to point out, there is no way to know for sure, or stop the determined, but reducing the risk factors still matters.
I could smoke all day every day and never get lung cancer, but smoking definitely increases the risk that I'll get lung cancer. I could walk through the woods of BC every day for my entire life an never be attacked by a bear, but doing the same thing in a suit made of steak certainly increases the risks...
Quirky
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I don’t care how they feel, that’s their problem. Society shouldn’t be catering to a tiny fraction of people who need mental support for their feelings.
Again, all these posts are just what these extreme lefties like Trudeau want to distract you with. Just keep ignoring the economy, housing, healthcare etc, PP said he’s against biological men playing in women’s sports! That’s violence and harmful, people will die!!!
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I too used to think that claims that anti trans laws were violence against trans people were silly arguments. I "used too".
Recently, a Republican Governor veto'd an anti trans law passed by a Republican state congress after he toured the state and had heart to heart conversations with trans people and the families and realized that anti trans laws do actually cause physical harm to trans people.
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I personally know two CAF transgender members who are doing well in professional and personal life, thanks to support given by the CAF.
I can’t say for certain if they would be still around had that support not been provided.
So maybe I’m a bit biased against the statements you wrote above. There are CAF members in that “tiny fraction” who you say shouldn’t be supported.
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Does that include the people who need mental support by VAC because of their CF service?
On a bigger level… so we set up a system that everyone has to follow, yet anyone that doesn’t fit in that system should be ignored? But the people who set up that system have twisted it to their own advantage (the current concentration of wealth is obscene), and that’s ok?
I don’t want to live in a world without empathy. People are too self-cantered as it is.
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I/we didnt send our children into public bathrooms alone ever this comes from a long experience with survivors of sexual abuse/court system etc..
the number of deviant cis men is higher in absolute numbers but relatively?
I think a transman is woman who identifies as a man?
Jarnhamar
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Some interesting stats in this study by the Correctional Service of Canada.
torontosun.com
Study finds nearly 45% of trans-women inmates convicted of sex crimes
Study finds nearly 45% of trans-women inmates convicted of sex crimes
A shocking new Correctional Service of Canada study has revealed that a staggering majority of male-to-female transgender inmates are behind bars for sexual offences.
torontosun.com
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