LGBTQ Stuff (split from other political threads)

[dimsum]

So, bring this all home, how is any of this made better by keeping parent out of it?

Would things not be better if patents were more, not less involved in their children's lives?

That seems to be the relevant argument to me.

I agree that parents should be more involved in their children’s lives. However, there are some situations where the children don’t feel comfortable coming out as LGBTQ to their parents, and instead coming out first to their teachers, or Cadet officers, etc. Anecdotally, I have examples of both cases.

My understanding (and feel free to correct me) from knowing some teachers is that they generally aren’t trying to keep this sort of stuff away from parents unless there is a credible reason that telling the parents would cause harm to the child. So, if the new rule is “always tell the parent” but the family won’t take it well, it is an awkward position and an ethical dilemma as a teacher.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I agree that parents should be more involved in their children’s lives. However, there are some situations where the children don’t feel comfortable coming out as LGBTQ to their parents, and instead coming out first to their teachers, or Cadet officers, etc. Anecdotally, I have examples of both cases.

My understanding (and feel free to correct me) from knowing some teachers is that they generally aren’t trying to keep this sort of stuff away from parents unless there is a credible reason that telling the parents would cause harm to the child. So, if the new rule is “always tell the parent” but the family won’t take it well, it is an awkward position and an ethical dilemma as a teacher.

Those are edge cases, IMHO. We should not be making policy on edge cases is the constant mantra that we also hear on any number of other subjects.

Whenever we have excluded parents from the educational system in Canada, bad things have happened (residential schools, anyone?).

Teachers are not clinicians. They are not qualified to decide to keep secrets. If a situation of true harm to child exists, we already have a system in place and a duty to report to qualified child and family services bodies.

I have been through this in my personal life. Thankfully, my wife and I were involved and our child got to the place that they needed to be, with our support. I believe most parents love their children regardless of sexual orientation and want the best for them. This is a tempest in a teapot, IMHO.

 

[Furniture]

I agree that parents should be more involved in their children’s lives. However, there are some situations where the children don’t feel comfortable coming out as LGBTQ to their parents, and instead coming out first to their teachers, or Cadet officers, etc. Anecdotally, I have examples of both cases.

My understanding (and feel free to correct me) from knowing some teachers is that they generally aren’t trying to keep this sort of stuff away from parents unless there is a credible reason that telling the parents would cause harm to the child. So, if the new rule is “always tell the parent” but the family won’t take it well, it is an awkward position and an ethical dilemma as a teacher.

Policy already exists to cover those edge cases regarding abuse, and the new policies being proposed by some jurisdictions don't change those other policies.

Polling suggests the vast majority of Canadians support the "tell the parents" policy WRT social transitioning. Fighting it on ideological grounds is exactly how you convince people there is an ulterior motive, and inspire a backlash against sexual/gender minorities.

 

[Lumber]

Ok maybe I'm just late to the party, but what exactly is it that is happening that these protestors are trying to stop?

Yea yea yea it's about allowing parents the fight to chose what lesson/values/morales are taught to their children (supposedly), but what exact policies, rules, or laws are currently on the books or being proposed that would act against this?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Ok maybe I'm just late to the party, but what exactly is it that is happening that these protestors are trying to stop?

Yea yea yea it's about allowing parents the fight to chose what lesson/values/morales are taught to their children (supposedly), but what exact policies, rules, or laws are currently on the books or being proposed that would act against this?

Like alot of things, people read into this what they want to particularly protest against. This all kicked off when New Brunswick (basically) passed a law that said parents have a right to be informed by schools if their children change their names/genders. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Somehow, activists on both sides have hijacked the debate to make it about sex education and or Trans-gender rights. Or a bunch of other things.

 

[Furniture]

Like alot of things, people read into this what they want to particularly protest against. This all kicked off when New Brunswick (basically) passed a law that said parents have a right to be informed by schools if their children change their names/genders. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Somehow, activists on both sides have hijacked the debate to make it about sex education and or Trans-gender rights. Or a bunch of other things.

This is likely the best summary of events.

Essentially NB and SK proposed provincial legislation to force schools to disclose "social transitioning" to parents. The idea behind the legislation seems to be an effort to prevent schools boards from making their own policies based on a few activists.

If you don't think school boards will do weird stuff, here is an example so wacky even the CBC published a story about it..

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/peel-school-board-library-book-weeding-1.6964332

Prior to that there was this gem...

Ontario school board 'regrets' burning books in the name of reconciliation as part of educational program

 

[Blackadder1916]

Like alot of things, people read into this what they want to particularly protest against. This all kicked off when New Brunswick (basically) passed a law that said parents have a right to be informed by schools if their children change their names/genders. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Somehow, activists on both sides have hijacked the debate to make it about sex education and or Trans-gender rights. Or a bunch of other things.

This is likely the best summary of events.

Essentially NB and SK proposed provincial legislation to force schools to disclose "social transitioning" to parents. The idea behind the legislation seems to be an effort to prevent schools boards from making their own policies based on a few activists.

I'll touch on only the New Brunswick issue since I've not paid any attention to Sask, at least not since I attended U of Sask decades ago.

There wasn't a "law"' passed about this issue nor were there school board "activists". What happened was that a "policy" was issued in August 2020 by the NB Minister of Education under the authority granted to him by the Education Act. It was called "Policy 713, Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity". This was enacted, according to reporting at the time, after at least a decade of consultation with various stakeholders including parents groups. To give the condensed wiki description:

"The policy, established under the province's Department of Education and Early Childhood Development, requires school personnel to respect students' pronouns and chosen names, requires each school to have at least one gender-neutral bathroom, and requires schools to provide professional learning opportunities for school personnel to understand and support the needs of LGBTQIA2S+ students. The policy also ensures that the establishment of a Gender-Sexuality Alliance club and any events or activities organized by such a club will be supported by school personnel and principals, with parental consent not being a requirement to join."

In June 2023, that policy was amended according to the wiki description;

"On June 8, 2023, Policy 713 was revised by Hogan and was announced to become effective starting July 1. His department updated three of the policy's sections: Self-identification, Sports Participation and Universal Spaces. Under Self-identification, two parts were adjusted. In Section 6.3.1, students ages 16 and above who identify as transgender or non-binary will engage in consultations with school officials, allowing for them to use their preferred name and pronouns. Section 6.3.2 adds that parental consent will be required for students under 16 to keep records of their preferred name, with further support being provided in cases where parental consent is inaccessible.[17] This change forbids New Brunswick teachers from using students' preferred pronouns if they are under 16 years of age, without parental consent.[18] Under Sports Participation, Section 6.1.5 was clarified to ensure that all students can "participate in curricular, co-curricular, and extracurricular activities that are safe and welcoming." Minister Hogan reaffirmed the New Brunswick Interscholastic Athletic Association's role in overseeing provincial high school sports.[17] This, however, also removes mentions of allowing students to participate in extracurricular activities, including sports, that match their gender identity.[18] Under Universal Spaces, Section 6.4.3 was added to establish the provision of private universal changing spaces within all schools.[17]"

A lot of the NB controversy seemed to stem from an apparent lack of consultation associated with the 2023 policy revision, nor any proof provided (nor discovered by a subsequent investigation) to support the claims of widespread complaints from parents being the catalyst for the revision.

It also seems that Sask was also about a similar "policy" and not legislation.

Since only the current 2023 Policy 713 is available on-line at any NB government site, I'll provide pdf copies here of both the original 2020 version and the 2023 version if anyone is interested in comparing them.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Exactly.

Like when people got up in arms about “the rise in sexual misconduct”, etc. Not really a surprise that rates were “low” if people are too scared or ashamed to say they were assaulted.



What I would want to know is whether there was any ideological split in the Parental Rights and the anti-LGBTQ camps in the same protest. It’s one thing to barely tolerate each other but they need the numbers, and another thing to support each other.

Some folks were arrested at some of the protests (and maybe counter-protests). I’m guessing that the Whitby one was relatively tame and without incident.

A few points / questions:

1. Trans (and by extension, LGBTQ) people exist. Some people may not like the fact that they exist, but saying they don’t exist is just patently false.
2. What would be the end goal of “indoctrinating” kids to being trans? Is it so that every boy becomes a girl and vice versa? If so, why? How does that help a cause?
3. As a parent, would you love your child less if they were trans? If so, why would they want to come out to you, and if the issue is forced, does anyone really think that they would just say “oh well I tried…” and forget about it?
4. For those using the religious (Christian, specifically) argument, what about the whole “created in his image” thing? Were just some people created in his image? I’m pretty sure that distinction wasn’t in the book.

1) To many being trans is a mental illness. I would argue that is a pretty clear statement, as how is not believing your male/female a clearly defined characteristic of sex, not a mental illness? Its not that people don’t believe there is no trans people, its just they refuse to pretend they are something they are not.

We have legislated that we are not allowed to attempt to dissuade them of this mental illness. Even for professionals. To me this is the same thing as legislating that we have to pretend to believe in the voices schizophrenia people believe exist, and affirm them in their delusions.

2) there is a subversive goal to push this ideology to children because they believe its in the best interest of the child. It is because they think they are helping, not because they are trying to do harm.

I would counter all it does is confuse the child as this is all subject matter they will have no real understanding of until they at least hit puberty, and even then likely a number of years after to really understand.

Children are impressionable and easily manipulated. When things are pushed upon them they take them at face value without any critical thinking skills.

So when you tell them that being male or female isn’t fixed, it confuses them. Waiting until they are at least teenagers would be the way to do it, not pushing it in elementary schools to kids who will not understand what they are pushing.

3) Its not a matter of loving my child less, its about getting them help. When 33-50% of trans people attempt to kill themselves and at least 3.5 times the population average suicide rate succeed, that is untreated mental illness to me. This isn’t some magic if we pretend it isn’t a problem it doesn’t remain one situation. Why would anyone want that type of misery for their child is beyond me.

4) I am not religious nor do I give much of a crap for any of them. At the end of the day when your a adult do as you please as long as it doesn’t effect me. But once you start bringing children into the equation and subverting the whole point in education (which the farther I get in life, I sincerely question the value of most of what is taught in schools) we have a problem.

I am of the opinion that I don’t trust the government to act in my or my childrens best interest as they have proven many times throughout history that they don’t have our interests at heart.

This is all based off a theory which is very recent and not proven. That we have in secret changed the policies on and any questioning of said policies is immediately denounced and attacked. How can anyone trust they have your childs best interest at heart when they won’t even tell you they enacted these policies?

 

[Lumber]

1) To many being trans is a mental illness. I would argue that is a pretty clear statement, as how is not believing your male/female a clearly defined characteristic of sex, not a mental illness? Its not that people don’t believe there is no trans people, its just they refuse to pretend they are something they are not.

We have legislated that we are not allowed to attempt to dissuade them of this mental illness. Even for professionals. To me this is the same thing as legislating that we have to pretend to believe in the voices schizophrenia people believe exist, and affirm them in their delusions.

2) there is a subversive goal to push this ideology to children because they believe its in the best interest of the child. It is because they think they are helping, not because they are trying to do harm.

I would counter all it does is confuse the child as this is all subject matter they will have no real understanding of until they at least hit puberty, and even then likely a number of years after to really understand.

Children are impressionable and easily manipulated. When things are pushed upon them they take them at face value without any critical thinking skills.

So when you tell them that being male or female isn’t fixed, it confuses them. Waiting until they are at least teenagers would be the way to do it, not pushing it in elementary schools to kids who will not understand what they are pushing.

3) Its not a matter of loving my child less, its about getting them help. When 33-50% of trans people attempt to kill themselves and at least 3.5 times the population average suicide rate succeed, that is untreated mental illness to me. This isn’t some magic if we pretend it isn’t a problem it doesn’t remain one situation. Why would anyone want that type of misery for their child is beyond me.

4) I am not religious nor do I give much of a crap for any of them. At the end of the day when your a adult do as you please as long as it doesn’t effect me. But once you start bringing children into the equation and subverting the whole point in education (which the farther I get in life, I sincerely question the value of most of what is taught in schools) we have a problem.

I am of the opinion that I don’t trust the government to act in my or my childrens best interest as they have proven many times throughout history that they don’t have our interests at heart.

This is all based off a theory which is very recent and not proven. That we have in secret changed the policies on and any questioning of said policies is immediately denounced and attacked. How can anyone trust they have your childs best interest at heart when they won’t even tell you they enacted these policies?

It's opinions like this that cause so much fear and suffering among the LGTBQ community, especially the trans community.

Gender dysphoria, or being trans, is not a mental disorder, nor a mental illness. The increased risk of depression and suicidality among trans people is not because they have a mental illness. Rather, it is associated with the experiences of transphobia and discrimination. Literally they are killing themselves because people in society, like you, refuse to see them as "normal" and isntead as "having a mental illness".

 

[Fabius]

Gender Dysphoria is specifically laid out in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 5 Revision TR (2022) with criteria for diagnosis.

Based on that the medical experts would seem to think it’s a disorder that can be improved by specific actions.

 

[Lumber]

Gender Dysphoria is specifically laid out in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 5 Revision TR (2022) with criteria for diagnosis.

Based on that the medical experts would seem to think it’s a disorder that can be improved by specific actions.

Canada, the UK, and the WHO have clearly stated they no longer consider gender dysphoria a "disorder".

The US modified the term in the DSM (the reference you mentioned above) from gender identify disorder to gender dysphoria, with the implication being that the issues is no longer the gender non comformaty itself (because it itself isn't a disorder) but all the mental health issues that currently stem from the experience of those who are transgendered. The fact that the "condition" is outlined in a publication.l which included "mental disorders" does not automatically make it by definition a mental disorder. They simply don't have two manuals.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

It's opinions like this that cause so much fear and suffering among the LGTBQ community, especially the trans community.

Gender dysphoria, or being trans, is not a mental disorder, nor a mental illness. The increased risk of depression and suicidality among trans people is not because they have a mental illness. Rather, it is associated with the experiences of transphobia and discrimination. Literally they are killing themselves because people in society, like you, refuse to see them as "normal" and isntead as "having a mental illness".

It is reactions like this that do not further rational discussion.

I do not agree with everything that Eaglelord just wrote, or how he phrased things, but broadly he said that kids should receive age appropriate education (you and he clearly differ on the appropriate age, but that is semantics); that mental health issues/suicide is higher in the trans community (uncontroversial) and that once adults, people should be free to live how they like.

How is that an attack on Trans/LGTBQ people?

I am tired of people going into attack mode on these issues. There are real people involved, with real and sometimes very complex issues also involved. Growing up and figuring out who you are is difficult enough without being bombarded, one way or another, on what the “right” form of sexual expression or identity is. All sides of this issue have extremists that are insistent that everyone else in society must follow their dictates on how children are educated and raised. I simply default to the premise that, in the vast majority of cases, the biological parents are the ones who should have the most input and the final decision on how their children are raised. Not the state. Not teachers unions. Not school boards.

 

[Lumber]

It is reactions like this that do not further rational discussion.

Sorry, not sorry. Everything I said was rational. Opinions like his harm children.

I do not agree with everything that Eaglelord just wrote, or how he phrased things, but broadly he said that kids should receive age appropriate education (you and he clearly differ on the appropriate age, but that is semantics); that mental health issues/suicide is higher in the trans community (uncontroversial) and that once adults, people should be free to live how they like.

We probably don't actually disagree on the age appropriateness of what is being taught, we probably disagree fundamentally on what should be taught at all.

How is that an attack on Trans/LGTBQ people?

Anything, and I mean anything, that either leads to trans/lgtbq kids feeling worse about themselves is harmful, whether that's an increase it an internal feeling like they don't belong or are "not normal", or external bullying by other kids who don't see them as normal.

I am tired of people going into attack mode on these issues. There are real people involved, with real and sometimes very complex issues also involved. Growing up and figuring out who you are is difficult enough without being bombarded, one way or another, on what the “right” form of sexual expression or identity is. All sides of this issue have extremists that are insistent that everyone else in society must follow their dictates on how children are educated and raised. I simply default to the premise that, in the vast majority of cases, the biological parents are the ones who should have the most input and the final decision on how their children are raised. Not the state. Not teachers unions. Not school boards.

Sure, but if the state is teaching the truth and people don't like what the state is teaching, the they can home school their children. If a group of flat earth parents was protesting "to protect the children" because school are teaching the earth is round, I'd tell them to get fucked, and that their children deserve to hear the truth. In this case, these parents don't want children being taught about homosexuality or transgenderism AT ALL, so you have children who feel different from the majority of their peers (whether they are gay, transgendered, or similar) and these parents don't want any lessons AT ALL on these subjects, age appropriate or not. And don't tell me explaining homosexuality needs to be taught at an older age. A 4 year old can clearly and safely comprehend that their friends could have two mom/dads instead of the typical mom/dad.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Sorry, not sorry. Everything I said was rational. Opinions like his harm children.


We probably don't actually disagree on the age appropriateness of what is being taught, we probably disagree fundamentally on what should be taught at all.



Anything, and I mean anything, that either leads to trans/lgtbq kids feeling worse about themselves is harmful, whether that's an increase it an internal feeling like they don't belong or are "not normal", or external bullying by other kids who don't see them as normal.



Sure, but if the state is teaching the truth and people don't like what the state is teaching, the they can home school their children. If a group of flat earth parents was protesting "to protect the children" because school are teaching the earth is round, I'd tell them to get fucked, and that their children deserve to hear the truth. I'm this case, these parents don't want children being taught about homosexuality or transgenderism AT ALL, so you have children who feel different from the majority of their peers (whether they are gay, transgendered, or similar) and these parents don't want any lessons AT ALL on these subjects, age appropriate or not. And don't tell me explaining homosexuality needs to Eb taught at an older age. A 4 year old can clearly and safely comprehend that their friends could have two mom/dads instead of the typical mom/dad.

I wish you a good day, Sir.

 

[Furniture]

I'll touch on only the New Brunswick issue since I've not paid any attention to Sask, at least not since I attended U of Sask decades ago.

There wasn't a "law"' passed about this issue nor were there school board "activists". What happened was that a "policy" was issued in August 2020 by the NB Minister of Education under the authority granted to him by the Education Act. It was called "Policy 713, Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity". This was enacted, according to reporting at the time, after at least a decade of consultation with various stakeholders including parents groups. To give the condensed wiki description:

"The policy, established under the province's Department of Education and Early Childhood Development, requires school personnel to respect students' pronouns and chosen names, requires each school to have at least one gender-neutral bathroom, and requires schools to provide professional learning opportunities for school personnel to understand and support the needs of LGBTQIA2S+ students. The policy also ensures that the establishment of a Gender-Sexuality Alliance club and any events or activities organized by such a club will be supported by school personnel and principals, with parental consent not being a requirement to join."

In June 2023, that policy was amended according to the wiki description;

"On June 8, 2023, Policy 713 was revised by Hogan and was announced to become effective starting July 1. His department updated three of the policy's sections: Self-identification, Sports Participation and Universal Spaces. Under Self-identification, two parts were adjusted. In Section 6.3.1, students ages 16 and above who identify as transgender or non-binary will engage in consultations with school officials, allowing for them to use their preferred name and pronouns. Section 6.3.2 adds that parental consent will be required for students under 16 to keep records of their preferred name, with further support being provided in cases where parental consent is inaccessible.[17] This change forbids New Brunswick teachers from using students' preferred pronouns if they are under 16 years of age, without parental consent.[18] Under Sports Participation, Section 6.1.5 was clarified to ensure that all students can "participate in curricular, co-curricular, and extracurricular activities that are safe and welcoming." Minister Hogan reaffirmed the New Brunswick Interscholastic Athletic Association's role in overseeing provincial high school sports.[17] This, however, also removes mentions of allowing students to participate in extracurricular activities, including sports, that match their gender identity.[18] Under Universal Spaces, Section 6.4.3 was added to establish the provision of private universal changing spaces within all schools.[17]"

A lot of the NB controversy seemed to stem from an apparent lack of consultation associated with the 2023 policy revision, nor any proof provided (nor discovered by a subsequent investigation) to support the claims of widespread complaints from parents being the catalyst for the revision.

It also seems that Sask was also about a similar "policy" and not legislation.

Since only the current 2023 Policy 713 is available on-line at any NB government site, I'll provide pdf copies here of both the original 2020 version and the 2023 version if anyone is interested in comparing them.

Fair, it's policy not legislation. That doesn't change the gist of what I wrote at all...

I know from my peer group back home on PEI there is a lot of complaining being done about how schools are operating, but not much of it is done officially due to fear of repercussions/"cancellation". There are a small number of self employed people who will speak up, but many won't because their work could easily get pressured to fire them for having an "incorrect" opinion.

Now before the whole "people don't actually get cancelled" comments come in. The reality of people not getting "cancelled" very often doesn't matter if the perception is that it will happen. Most people like having a home, and food to eat, so they avoid taking gambles with their careers.

 

[Lumber]

lse in society must follow their dictates on how children are educated and raised. I simply default to the premise that, in the vast majority of cases, the biological parents are the ones who should have the most input and the final decision on how their children are raised. Not the state. Not teachers unions. Not school boards.

Sorry I'm going to re visit this last bit, but not specifically from you @SeaKingTacco, but more in general.

What is it thatpeople with this opinion expect from the government? We have only one school board and one curriculum per course/grade. There are millions of parents with thousands of different views on, well, everything. How could we possibly design our education around "what each parent wants"? What one parent thinks is right for their kids, another parent will not, so what does these people really expect?

 

[The Bread Guy]

... Somehow, activists on both sides of issue x have hijacked the debate to make it about y and or z. Or a bunch of other things.

Well summed up on this one, as well as a whole truckload of other Issue X's out there on all sides.

 

[Quirky]

Literally they are killing themselves because people in society, like you, refuse to see them as "normal" and isntead as "having a mental illness".

Being trans is not normal in the scientific sense as there are only two genders and two sexes. You can't swap between the two at will. Overall, normal or not normal, 99.9% of the population doesn't care what you do with yourself, or how you identify yourself. Majority just want to live their lives in peace, it's the small vocal minority and activists who make things tough for both sides.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Sorry I'm going to re visit this last bit, but not specifically from you @SeaKingTacco, but more in general.

What is it thatpeople with this opinion expect from the government? We have only one school board and one curriculum per course/grade. There are millions of parents with thousands of different views on, well, everything. How could we possibly design our education around "what each parent wants"? What one parent thinks is right for their kids, another parent will not, so what does these people really expect?

If you think about it for a few minutes, perhaps you can come up with the answer yourself. it is, self-evidently, in your own post.

 

[GR66]

Sorry I'm going to re visit this last bit, but not specifically from you @SeaKingTacco, but more in general.

What is it thatpeople with this opinion expect from the government? We have only one school board and one curriculum per course/grade. There are millions of parents with thousands of different views on, well, everything. How could we possibly design our education around "what each parent wants"? What one parent thinks is right for their kids, another parent will not, so what does these people really expect?

Some would argue that it's not the responsibility of school boards to teach everything. And no, I'm not arguing against Health and Sex Ed classes but in some areas the line blurs between commonly accepted science-based "facts" and more subjective culturally-based "norms". Perhaps these are the types of things that are better left to the family and broader social community rather than a classroom curriculum. As one former politician put it:

“There is no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation”*​

*Quote from then-Justice Minister Pierre Trudeau when he introduced modernizing reforms to the Criminal Code in 1967 that decriminalized homosexual acts.