Leave - Recall and Other Issues [MERGED]

[Lumber]

We spend a lot more time in PT kit if there is less work to be done. If you're doing PT 2x a day, and have no reason to change into combats (aka appointments, dirty work, meetings, etc) from 1000 (start of work) until your next session (1200 for most that do two-a-days), why the hell would you change into combats?

What's a two-a-day?

 

[Bzzliteyr]

What's a two-a-day?

Two PT sessions a day. The infantry don't have that much to do.

 

[Lumber]

Two PT sessions a day. The infantry don't have that much to do.

That explains so much of this thread.

 

[PuckChaser]

That explains so much of this thread.

I didn't know we were making broad generalizations. If we were, I'd suggest RCN risk adverse culture and strict adherence to the letter of every policy document is why they're hemorrhaging sailors. But we're not doing that.

 

[Lumber]

I didn't know we were making broad generalizations. If we were, I'd suggest RCN risk adverse culture and strict adherence to the letter of every policy document is why they're hemorrhaging sailors. But we're not doing that.

No no no; it's why we're the senior service  .

 

[mariomike]

op:

 

[Lumber]

I haven't checked yet,  and maybe Mario you could with your super human search skills,  but I wonder how many of the people in this thread who don't see it as such a big deal to give lots of leave (and other relaxations)  counter to regulations are the same ones who in the PT thread defend strongly that everyone should be doing an hour of PT a day because it's in the CDS's Guidance to COs.

 

[PuckChaser]

Correlation =/= causation. I don't need a university degree to figure that out.

 

[Lumber]

In the quiet words of the virgin mary.... come again?

 

[armyvern]

At no point did I ever suggest a women not be allowed to take compassionate leave instead of MATA. I only used PATA as an example because it's what I had direct experience with. There's no reason why a woman shouldn't be able to take 2 weeks compassionate and come back to work if they so choose.

Only it doesn't work that way.  We must take MATA (as that is what it's intended for), and if I only want 2 weeks, then I need to have a doctor sign off saying that I'm good to go to return to work after I have the kid.  Note:  I'm already on MATA leave by the time I have the kid for the doc to sign off.  Compassionate is not an option as that is what MATA is for - regardless of whether I only want two weeks or not.

 

[PuckChaser]

So you have an issue with the medical system, not the compassionate leave policy. I wasn't aware on how that worked, as my spouse was not employed, but you came off firing like I made some sort of misogynistic comments here on only speaking to PATA.

 

[armyvern]

So you have an issue with the medical system, not the compassionate leave policy. I wasn't aware on how that worked, as my spouse was not employed, but you came off firing like I made some sort of misogynistic comments here on only speaking to PATA.

No it's got ZERO to do with the medical system.
Else we women would be on the already existing medical/sick leave vice Maternity Leave now wouldn't we?  But, we aren't SICK.

MATA = Intended for Maternity; and
PATA = Intended for Parental Leave taken by either/both parents as time to "bond" with their child.

Sick Leave = granted to a woman who, for example, ends up having child by emergency C Section - an actual medical complication (childbirth is not) at which time her spouse, for example, could rightfully also call upon his Chain of Command to grant "Compassionate Leave".  Stillbirth?  It's Compassionate Leave in that circumstance for both.

 

[PuckChaser]

If its not medical, why is a doctor's note the only way to return to work early?

 

[armyvern]

If its not medical, why is a doctor's note the only way to return to work early?

Because a bunch of people decided that MATA was intended for Maternity (women having kids) and, later, that PATA was intended for parents (dads or moms) as Parental leave to "bond" with children resulting from that maternity (or adoption process etc).  And, somehow, a group of people also decided that a docs note was required to start the paperwork process to RTW early from MATA.  It sure wasn't me.  The paperwork was a pain in the ass.

I'll eat my own fucking shoes if one CO comes on here and posts that he'd grant me 2 weeks compassionate to have my child and wouldn't make me go through the MATA/PATA process.



Edited to add:  I want to make it clear that I have zero issues with a CO granting a couple days compassionate/short to a member who does not want to take advantage of PATA to bond with his child (although, I think men SHOULD take advantage of as much PATA leave as they can).  A couple days.

Beyond a couple days, and into extended - a couple weeks? - then that's the realm of PATA.  Female military members have same amount of paperwork to do, a two week waiting period for their pogie to kick in etc ... unless, of course, we want to start giving all military women a couple weeks compassionate leave at full pay when they have kids too. 

My point is:  even IF a female military member comes back after two weeks with the docs sign-off, they still didn't get paid their full salary while they were gone for the "two-week bonding experience" like the military partner would be while on compassionate.  See the conflict there?  That's why we have guidelines for leave - and leave types that should be, barring the exceptions as decided by Commanding Officers, utilized as intended.  The exception, should also, NOT be the rule.

 

[the 48th regulator]

We did some of those things, maybe not to the extent you are mentioning, and it worked, it worked well, and when the next level up came to visit, we didn't hide it because there was nothing to hide.

We spend a lot more time in PT kit if there is less work to be done. If you're doing PT 2x a day, and have no reason to change into combats (aka appointments, dirty work, meetings, etc) from 1000 (start of work) until your next session (1200 for most that do two-a-days), why the hell would you change into combats?

We might do a longer run or PT session in the morning than the standard one hour.

We do take longer lunches so that we can play sports and eat (our grappling club starts at 11:30 each day... 45-60 minutes to grapple, 30-45 minutes to eat). God forbid we take an extra half hour "off" so that we can do an extra 45-60 minutes of martial arts each day at an infantry unit!

We do get some days after missing weekends and stat holidays because we are in the field that probably don't fit within the leave manual. You know what that's called? Managing pers tempo.

And not only does all of this make perfectly good sense, it is in line with the way smart companies in the private sector are "managing" their personnel. Flexible work hours, able to use OT for extra days off, I know a ton of accounting firms relax the office hours during "off-season" and just make sure that they've always got someone in the office at all times during normal hours, but not all employees are expected to be there all the time if they've got nothing to do.

Booom!!  Well Said!

Tess

 

[armyvern]

Booom!!  Well Said!

Tess

Agreed.

Was the norm in most Units that I've been at.  "If you have nothing to do, don't do it here".  Really the bosses call as the tempo allows for.  And, it may very well differ within the Unit itself too ---- watched the signallers leave early/return late from lunch and have early 1500hrs dismissals when tempo allowed for it many times while the RQ shop worked as we had "stuff" to do.  'Tis the way it is.

Oh, and when I was serving with the RCN ... Friday afternoon sliders were normal SOP. May still be that way, maybe not, but I suspect the Old Man in that world also makes the call as tempo allows for despite the protestations otherwise from some on here - just like in the Army and RCAF.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Oh, and when I was serving with the RCN ... Friday afternoon sliders were normal SOP. May still be that way, maybe not, but I suspect the Old Man in that world also makes the call as tempo allows for despite the protestations otherwise from some on here - just like in the Army and RCAF.

Sadly sliders are strictly no more, you can thank FMF for that...

 

[ballz]

I'll eat my own ******* shoes if one CO comes on here and posts that he'd grant me 2 weeks compassionate to have my child and wouldn't make me go through the MATA/PATA process.

I'll respond to this first because it is an important point and if there is something inherently sexist about what our unit is doing I would like to discover that and raise the issue to see how to solve it.

Now, I don't understand anything about childbirth, and because I'm in an infantry unit in 4 years I have literally had one female subordinate (direct subordinate I mean) and she was coming back off MATA/PATA so this never came up. But, I am actually 100% sure that if a female in our Battalion said to their CoC "Sir, this MATA/PATA stuff is a dogs breakfast, I'd really like to take advantage of the *Battalion Leave Plan for Parents* and come back to work 2 weeks after the birth of my child" they would most definitely be granted the exact same benefit. If there isn't some kind of weird medical administrative thing that would roadblock this, and its just a matter of us not doing the MATA/PATA paperwork and letting you stay home for 2 weeks, I 100% guarantee we would do it.

And if we couldn't, I promise I would raise the point that "Sir, we do this for every man in the Battalion. If we can't do it for the women, we need to figure something else out." But, like I said, I have not experienced, nor has anyone that I know of, having a female member request the program we offer.

*Fictitious name*

Two PT sessions a day. The infantry don't have that much to do.

Of course, I knew my post would be followed by the standard gripes about the infantry having nothing to do but PT.

I'm not sure how letting someone do their paperwork in PT kit from 1000-1200, so they have more time to get a second PT session in while still accomplishing their tasks, is in anyway indicative of having nothing to do. Yes, we value that person's dedication to physical fitness and support them by not having them waste time changing and showering twice a day (just to please a few close-minded people), to enable them to accomplish more PT while still being able to do their job. Whoop-di-diddly-do.

If the grass is so green on this side, why don't you cross the fence and see how much work we have to do?

I haven't checked yet,  and maybe Mario you could with your super human search skills,  but I wonder how many of the people in this thread who don't see it as such a big deal to give lots of leave (and other relaxations)  counter to regulations are the same ones who in the PT thread defend strongly that everyone should be doing an hour of PT a day because it's in the CDS's Guidance to COs.

I make a big deal about everyone doing PT because it stops our force from being embarrassingly overweight and ineffective. I'd like to think we wouldn't need the CDS to have to tell us to do an hour of PT a day because we've got leaders that already ensuring their troops are fit to fight. Perhaps you should use some of those "management" skills you are preaching about if the CDS's guidance is causing you heartache trying to find the time for your subordinates.

 

[armyvern]

...

I make a big deal about everyone doing PT because it stops our force from being embarrassingly overweight and ineffective. I'd like to think we wouldn't need the CDS to have to tell us to do an hour of PT a day because we've got leaders that already ensuring their troops are fit to fight. Perhaps you should use some of those "management" skills you are preaching about if the CDS's guidance is causing you heartache trying to find the time for your subordinates.

You should stop.

Just as I watch the early departures/late returns from lunch, 2 X per day PT, early dismissals from the workplace occur within some of the units that I'm posted to and understand that I am watching them depart because I am a support trade and they are not ...  Remember that WE are busy working and we don't have quite as much time on our hands during working hours as you do because we are busy getting shit done to support you.

Perhaps you should notice that those support trades are working, are red, aren't leaving early/late or dismissing when you guys are because we are working our asses off to support your asses.  We are working to support you when we're not at PT ... not sitting on our asses.

It is also my experience that these same pers above are the very first ones, and the loudest ones, to bitch and complain the instant a supporter isn't available to support them.  It's why my troops from clothing stores never got to fully enjoy their Men's Christmas Dinner etc etc ... because the infantry unit on base bitched because clothing was shut down for the day and they couldn't get served, so ever-after half the troops had to stay and "work" to support you.  Talk about "troop morale".  :

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Of course, I knew my post would be followed by the standard gripes about the infantry having nothing to do but PT

Oops, you're right. I forgot to mention card playing.