King Charles III Coronation Medal

[Furniture]

AOC Don Bennett famously said there would be "no living VC's" in Bomber Command PFF.

He felt there should be no "stars" or 'professional heroes."

Bomber Command by Sir Max Hastings, page 280.

There have been terrible leaders throughout human history...

 

[PrairieFella]

I don't recall off the top of my head who exactly comprises the AFC, but the whom would be L1s (LGen/RAdm) and likely some other senior advisors.

"I didn't get one, so fuck you!"

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yeah, I always get the feeling the "we look too American now" crowd is really just signalling their displeasure about not being visibly recognized for their accomplishments/service.

With most of our medals, they are just like getting a sticker for attendance. I showed up in place A for X days, here is my shiny bit of tin with some coloured ribbon. My SSI was harder to "earn" than all but two of my medals, and with one of them, the CD, it's simply that it takes 12 years to get and the first SSI only takes 180 days at sea.

As much as I think the SSI is silly, I agree with you. It is more difficult to earn than most tour medals.

 

[Furniture]

As much as I think the SSI is silly, I agree with you. It is more difficult to earn than most tour medals.

I at one time thought the SSI was a bit odd, but over time I have come around on it.

It's cheap and effective recognition of actually going to sea and doing what you're paid to do. Some people might play the SCRIT game well and get promoted, but if they are a PO 1 with a gunmetal SSI, and they decide to opine on how things should be at sea, you know where they are coming from.

 

[KTown Cowboy]

I've been written up a couple times for saving people's lives, but they got put into the "just doing his job" bin

Been there a few times, did that for 7 years and when I left they gave me a coloured piece of paper saying thanks for coming out.

 

[mariomike]

There have been terrible leaders throughout human history...

Regarding his leadership...

Bennett's men took intense pride in their membership of 8 Group, a perverse pleasure in the ban on publicity about their 'ops', in Bennett's insistance that there should be no stars or proffessional heroes.
But, his men cherished the hovering eagle badge that they were forbidden to wear on operations, and the inscribed Certificate that survivors were awarded on completion of their double tour of forty-five operations.
Bennett was a humourless, unrelenting man whom it was hard to like, but difficult not to respect as a professional airman.
He created a genuine spirit among his men. They had their share of LMF cases, 'fringe merchants' and poor pilots. But, for the most part, they were very conscientous young men, who did their utmost.

BOMBER COMMAND ROUTINE ORDERS BY AIR CHIEF MARSHAL SIR A.T. HARRIS KCB, CBE, AFC
A.52. SPECIAL ORDER OF THE DAY - 10th May 1945

"Your chance of survival through one spell of operational duty was neglible; through two periods mathematically nil."

Those certificates must have been pretty rare. My uncle only made it half way through his second tour.

 

[George Wallace]

Who gave those kids those trophies? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't the kids themselves. If you want to blame anyone, blame your own generation for trying to make life easier for the next generation. Maybe there is a point that things are too easy, but don't blame the children for the actions of adults.

Also, I'm the one that made the attendance comment, and I stand by it. I attended Afghanistan, the Med, the Arabian Sea, etc... My medals are for being there, not for doing anything particularly special or extra while there.

I've also been doing this for nearly 24 years at this time, with no intent to release quite yet, so I think I've got plenty of time in and experience to comment on these things.

I have to agree with you on those points, and some of them are a bone of contention that, as you point out, are the result of my generations giving out awards for little or nothing, and sadly that liberal progressive wokeness has infiltrated the highest levels of business, politics and the military.

I have to agree 100% with medicine man on the lack of movement by our Government to properly award bravery medals to some of our extraordinary soldiers in Afghanistan. Again, I will fall back on how our Government is "going on the cheap", especially when it comes to the military.

However, back to a medal for "Four Years of Service", again I find it redundant and woke. If you also consider the Petition circulating for a "Volunteer Service Medal", you can start to contemplate the costs. We would start with DHH designing the medal(s) and appropriate ribbon(s), having it Approved by the Crown and then put into production, then the Research and Verification of Records for the millions who have served since the cessation of hostilities in 1945/46, then on to the locating and presenting of the medal(s). Our Government is operating on the cheap. They won't even award the Coronation medal to ALL who were serving on the date of the Coronation.

 

[mariomike]

RCAF 6 Group also seemed to have some leadership issues as well . They're dealings with PTSD sufferer's for a start . It's just a lack of moral fibre.... seriously?

Read this about RCAF Bomber Command. Was not limited to 6 Group.

There was great fear at the top of the service that if an honourable path existed to escape operations, many men would take it. 'L.M.F. ( Lack of Moral Fibre ) could go through a squadron like wildfire if it was left unchecked' says one of the most distinguished post-war leaders of the RAF, who in 1943 was commanding a bomber station. 'I made certain that every case before me was punished by court-martial, and where applicable, by an exemplary prison sentence, whatever the psychiatrists were saying.'

 

[brihard]

I have to agree with you on those points, and some of them are a bone of contention that, as you point out, are the result of my generations giving out awards for little or nothing, and sadly that liberal progressive wokeness has infiltrated the highest levels of business, politics and the military.

I have to agree 100% with medicine man on the lack of movement by our Government to properly award bravery medals to some of our extraordinary soldiers in Afghanistan. Again, I will fall back on how our Government is "going on the cheap", especially when it comes to the military.

However, back to a medal for "Four Years of Service", again I find it redundant and woke. If you also consider the Petition circulating for a "Volunteer Service Medal", you can start to contemplate the costs. We would start with DHH designing the medal(s) and appropriate ribbon(s), having it Approved by the Crown and then put into production, then the Research and Verification of Records for the millions who have served since the cessation of hostilities in 1945/46, then on to the locating and presenting of the medal(s). Our Government is operating on the cheap. They won't even award the Coronation medal to ALL who were serving on the date of the Coronation.

Just so I can respond properly, what are you using to define “woke” when you tie the term to a proposed shorter duration service medal? This isn’t a context where that term generally means anything but I may be missing something.

To your point of cost: creating and designing the medal would be negligible in real terms. Distribution would be the real variable; going back as far as, say, 1946 might be more of a challenge, but a date that’s more recent could leverage existing data sets such as pay records. Reservists would be the bigger challenge in that respect. But I don’t feel that, if other’s otherwise worthy and reasonable, questions of logistical challenges in distribution should be a showstopper for recognizing Canadians who stepped up to serve.

The more I think on it, with how the divide has continued to grow between Canadians and the military, a visible, tangible recognition for those who stepped up and did their stint may not be a bad idea. Anyone joining is rolling the dice on what’ll happen in the world; ask anyone who showed up to St Jean in August 2001. A tangible thanks for that dice roll which would be visible at events like Remembrance Day would not be an awful thing.

 

[mariomike]

Anyone joining is rolling the dice on what’ll happen in the world;

Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my impression Reservists ( if they chose not to "step up and do their stint" ) could only be forced to into full-time service if there was a Draft / Conscription ( last one 1945 ).

In which case, able-bodied male ( and female? ) civilians would also be eligible to get drafted.

I got three reasons for bein' in the Army. First, I'm patriotic. Second, I love my country. And third, they nailed me.

 

[George Wallace]

Just so I can respond properly, what are you using to define “woke”.....

In this case, I'd probably have to go with our current culture, across all segments of our society, of giving out freebees, awards to everyone just for participation/attendance. We have the question raised of a medal for four years of service, where we already have one for twelve, with bars for twenty-two, thirty-two, forty-two, etc. It is sort of the idea that you no longer have to 'compete'. Add on a movement that is petitioning for a Volunteer Service Medal, for signing on the line, not during a time of war, as we saw in WW II, and we can see a trend.

I liked your idea of a medal for Domestic Ops, which would something in tune with the SSM, except for Domestic deployments. To me that would be a reasonable proposal over the two I alluded to above. Like the SSM, it would have Bars to signify what Ops one was on, as opposed to creating a separate medal for each Op.

We, unfortunately, haven't been able to award medals for extraordinary and heroic actions in Afghanistan, due to our Government's policies and dragging its feet. Adding more awards, with perhaps 'lesser' criteria and significance, further complicates and delays awarding some of our highest awards.

In the end, are we debating over awards or egos?

 

[Rudburg]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my impression Reservists ( if they chose not to "step up and do their stint" ) could only be forced to into full-time service if there was a Draft / Conscription ( last one 1945 ).

In which case, able-bodied male ( and female? ) civilians would also be eligible to get drafted.

Section 31 of the NDA allows the government to place any unit, element, component or member of the CAF on "active service," including the reserve force. Short of WW3 this is unlikely to happen.

The government could also impose conscription, but this would require a different act of Parliament as the NDA is silent on the topic.

 

[brihard]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my impression Reservists ( if they chose not to "step up and do their stint" ) could only be forced to into full-time service if there was a Draft / Conscription ( last one 1945 ).

In which case, able-bodied male ( and female? ) civilians would also be eligible to get drafted.

My understanding is that the necessarily legislation and regulatory enablers exist to order the PRes to full time service if absolutely needed, it’s more that it’s just one of those things that by convention wouldn’t be done save for a real national emergency. Any one of a dozen more knowledgeable posters here will correct me if I’m wrong.

EDIT: @Rudburg got this while I was typing. Thanks.

In this case, I'd probably have to go with our current culture, across all segments of our society, of giving out freebees, awards to everyone just for participation/attendance.

OK… Freebies and participation trophies isn’t at all what ‘woke’ is, but that’s fine, you’ve clarified what track we’re on and it’s still the conventional one we see come up in these discussions. I just wasn’t sure if some weird ideological rabbit hole had opened up. Thanks for clearing that up.

We have the question raised of a medal for four years of service, where we already have one for twelve, with bars for twenty-two, thirty-two, forty-two, etc. It is sort of the idea that you no longer have to 'compete'. Add on a movement that is petitioning for a Volunteer Service Medal, for signing on the line, not during a time of war, as we saw in WW II, and we can see a trend.

I’d see a ‘short service medal’ or a ‘CVSM’ as a couple kicks at the same cat. To me, hitting OFP and completing a basic term of engagement would be reasonable for recognition. I think Canada has gotten more and more detached from its veterans. This may be a generational thing between you and I, but your generation is probably much more aware and connected than mine, and there are a couple more generations already coming up behind me. CAF has troops born in 2006/07 now. We used to talk about troops born after the Gulf War… Now it’s troops born after Op Medusa.

I like the idea of any Canadian who served honourably and did their bit - not knowing on Friday what Monday would bring - being recognized for stepping up, something most will never do. It’s no more a matter of ‘competing’ than the CD is. I think a lot of younger Canadians showing up on Remembrance Day wearing a short service medal might show there to be a lot of us out there, and cause more “hey, what’s that medal?” conversations that lead to discussion of what their few years in CAF did for them. I’d also be fine with a short service medal being exchanged for the CD when 12 years is hit, in case that mitigates concerns of rack inflation. We already have orders that get traded in for a higher grade, so there’s precedent.

I liked your idea of a medal for Domestic Ops, which would something in tune with the SSM, except for Domestic deployments. To me that would be a reasonable proposal over the two I alluded to above. Like the SSM, it would have Bars to signify what Ops one was on, as opposed to creating a separate medal for each Op.

Yeah, initially I was thinking a ‘domestic’ bar to the SSM, but I’ve leaned more towards something like an OSM-Domestic. I’m not sure how viable op specific bars would be given how DOMOPS are likely to be an accumulation of multiple short but kinda shitty deployments. But maybe something similar to the rotation bars for cumulative service? Someone would need to pull data and get a sense of what’s reasonable on that. But I could see a low threshold - 30, 45 days - for an initial award, and maybe high thresholds for bars.

We, unfortunately, haven't been able to award medals for extraordinary and heroic actions in Afghanistan, due to our Government's policies and dragging its feet. Adding more awards, with perhaps 'lesser' criteria and significance, further complicates and delays awarding some of our highest awards.

No VCs, no. Lots of well earned MMV / SMV, and some bravery decorations to boot. I think the lack of any VCs is a travesty. I can’t speak to whether we failed to recognize valour adequately.

In the end, are we debating over awards or egos?

Recognition, I think. For me personally it’s all academic. I have my modest rack, already got a CD so a short service medal wouldn’t apply, and I didn’t do enough DOMOPS that I’d see anything under reasonable criteria for that. I’ve come to strongly few that what CAF does for Canadians should be more loudly celebrated. A DOMOPS medal would help with that (and would incentivize reservists stepping up), and I’m coming to think a short service medal for OFP and a basic engagement might indirectly spread a bit more awareness that we’re out.

Sunday morning coffee thoughts…

 

[mariomike]

incentivize reservists stepping up),

BZ to reservists who step up.

 

[Jarnhamar]

A domestic medal would be nice. Especially for reservists who go on domestic ops but aren't able to deploy (which arguably they should be able to but that's another topic).

I wouldn't be a huge fan of a 4 year in medal, but not against it either. I'd make a caveat for reserves to be a certain number of days worked vs time from the day they joined.

 

[brihard]

I wouldn't be a huge fan of a 4 year in medal, but not against it either. I'd make a caveat for reserves to be a certain number of days worked vs time from the day they joined.

Concur. Theee or four years of evenings, weekends, and a Stalwart Guardian or two would not cut it.

 

[George Wallace]

I’d see a ‘short service medal’ or a ‘CVSM’ as a couple kicks at the same cat. To me, hitting OFP and completing a basic term of engagement would be reasonable for recognition. I think Canada has gotten more and more detached from its veterans. This may be a generational thing between you and I, but your generation is probably much more aware and connected than mine, and there are a couple more generations already coming up behind me. CAF has troops born in 2006/07 now. We used to talk about troops born after the Gulf War… Now it’s troops born after Op Medusa.

I like the idea of any Canadian who served honourably and did their bit - not knowing on Friday what Monday would bring - being recognized for stepping up, something most will never do. It’s no more a matter of ‘competing’ than the CD is. I think a lot of younger Canadians showing up on Remembrance Day wearing a short service medal might show there to be a lot of us out there, and cause more “hey, what’s that medal?” conversations that lead to discussion of what their few years in CAF did for them. I’d also be fine with a short service medal being exchanged for the CD when 12 years is hit, in case that mitigates concerns of rack inflation. We already have orders that get traded in for a higher grade, so there’s precedent.

Yeah, initially I was thinking a ‘domestic’ bar to the SSM, but I’ve leaned more towards something like an OSM-Domestic. I’m not sure how viable op specific bars would be given how DOMOPS are likely to be an accumulation of multiple short but kinda shitty deployments. But maybe something similar to the rotation bars for cumulative service? Someone would need to pull data and get a sense of what’s reasonable on that. But I could see a low threshold - 30, 45 days - for an initial award, and maybe high thresholds for bars.

Recognition, I think. For me personally it’s all academic. I have my modest rack, already got a CD so a short service medal wouldn’t apply, and I didn’t do enough DOMOPS that I’d see anything under reasonable criteria for that. I’ve come to strongly few that what CAF does for Canadians should be more loudly celebrated. A DOMOPS medal would help with that (and would incentivize reservists stepping up), and I’m coming to think a short service medal for OFP and a basic engagement might indirectly spread a bit more awareness that we’re out.

Now, don't forget, that there are other forms of recognition, than a medal. We have MIDs and other badges and clasps worn on the uniform; but other than accoutrements to be worn, we have Certificates, Letters of recognition, plaques, etc. that one would have on file or hang on a wall.

 

[brihard]

Now, don't forget, that there are other forms of recognition, than a medal. We have MIDs and other badges and clasps worn on the uniform; but other than accoutrements to be worn, we have Certificates, Letters of recognition, plaques, etc. that one would have on file or hang on a wall.

Right, but as I said I see there being a societal scale messaging component to this; show Canadians these vets are out there. There’s also something about a medal that a certificate or pin doesn’t match.

I wish I could remember where the post is, but I remember someone some years back posted here about someone telling the story of his medals to some civilians, and explaining his greatest pride being in the CD for all the otherwise unremarked sacrifices and labours it represented. I always liked that post. I feel like @Edward Campbell might have shared it.

 

[mariomike]

I wish I could remember where the post is, but I remember someone some years back posted here about someone telling the story of his medals to some civilians, and explaining his greatest pride being in the CD for all the otherwise unremarked sacrifices and labours it represented. I always liked that post. I feel like @Edward Campbell might have shared it.

Post in thread 'Medals Parade'

10 Jul 2006

One of my lasting memories of someone talking about the decorations and medals that he was wearing occurred in 1994.  I had the good luck of having a COS date out of Lahr that permitted me to arrange my passage home on the Queen Elizabeth 2 sailing out of Southampton on 8 June.  I was able therefore to drive to Normandy and spend 6 June 94 (50th Anniversary of D-Day) visiting some of the memorials and events there; take the ferry across to England; turn my car over to Cunard for loading onto the ship and then relax for several days on the North Atlantic.  The voyage was billed as a “D-Day...

• Blackadder1916

• 

 

[brihard]

Post in thread 'Medals Parade'

10 Jul 2006

One of my lasting memories of someone talking about the decorations and medals that he was wearing occurred in 1994.  I had the good luck of having a COS date out of Lahr that permitted me to arrange my passage home on the Queen Elizabeth 2 sailing out of Southampton on 8 June.  I was able therefore to drive to Normandy and spend 6 June 94 (50th Anniversary of D-Day) visiting some of the memorials and events there; take the ferry across to England; turn my car over to Cunard for loading onto the ship and then relax for several days on the North Atlantic.  The voyage was billed as a “D-Day...

• Blackadder1916

• 

That’s the one, thanks Mike.