IR in Edmonton

[McG]

I've noticed the term "IR standard" has popped up quite a bit around here, though, and I can't seem to find a source for it.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pub/lai-il/doc/dndlai-ilmdn-eng.pdf

If you search the doc for "IR" you will find pers on IR are entitled to "Residential Accommodation Standards" (which is defined starting on Pg 9).  However, "Training Accomodation Standard Type III" is acceptable for periods of less than 6 months.

 

[s_other]

I wouldn't hitch my horse to that ref.  Unfortunately, it says "may request residential accommodation," not entitled.  As we all know, what we want and what we're entitled to vary greatly.

The part that would concern me most is that Separation Expense (the foundation of IR) is now governed by CBI 208.997, which has a subsection of "208.997(7) (Amount – Rations and Quarters)
If rations and quarters are available at public expense, the amount of SE is limited to: (a) rations and quarters at public expense;" (the other sub paras are about parking, SE rate, and and hook-ups).  The definition of "quarters" is (found in the same CBI):

“quarters” means an accommodation — without
cooking facilities  — available to a member at
public expense, and includes “government and
institutional accommodation” as defined in the
National Joint Council Travel Directive, as
amended from time to time.

A quick search of "government and institutional accommodation" at the NJC site says that these are "federal government training centres, universities, colleges, Canadian or foreign military establishments, Veterans Affairs Canada hospitals, trailers, tents and other facilities owned, controlled, authorized or arranged by the Crown, including other educational institutions that provide sleeping accommodation."

As you can see, there is nothing that states any particular standard.  Quite simply, if rations and quarters are available, you can be stuck in a mod across the hall from some Pte fresh off his QL3 and sharing a washroom with four other people, something I was lucky enough to experience for two months.  DCBA is cracking down on abuse of certain benefits in the CF, and IR is right up there.

 

[McG]

I wouldn't hitch my horse to that ref.  Unfortunately, it says "may request residential accommodation," not entitled.  As we all know, what we want and what we're entitled to vary greatly.

Yes, it does say "may request" and this does equate to "not entitled."  However, that means a member on IR is not entitled to live on base.  If accomodations do not exist or do not meet the standard, then the member can be told "sorry, you've got to find a place on the economy."  You are doing some sort of gymnastics to take "not entitled to residential accommodation" and convert it to "obliged into lesser accomodations."

Get down to pg 16/29.  For quarters to have been allocated to a person on IR, those quarters must have met the standard.

... of course, you are also correct that the new CBI trumps any existing CF/DND direction.  By that CBI definition of accomodations, if Cat 1 Trg Accomodations are available, then that is the local standard for IR living.

 

[armyvern]

I wouldn't hitch my horse to that ref.  Unfortunately, it says "may request residential accommodation," not entitled.  As we all know, what we want and what we're entitled to vary greatly.

The part that would concern me most is that Separation Expense (the foundation of IR) is now governed by CBI 208.997, which has a subsection of "208.997(7) (Amount – Rations and Quarters)
If rations and quarters are available at public expense, the amount of SE is limited to: (a) rations and quarters at public expense;" (the other sub paras are about parking, SE rate, and and hook-ups).  The definition of "quarters" is (found in the same CBI):

“quarters” means an accommodation — without
cooking facilities  — available to a member at
public expense, and includes “government and
institutional accommodation” as defined in the
National Joint Council Travel Directive, as
amended from time to time.

A quick search of "government and institutional accommodation" at the NJC site says that these are "federal government training centres, universities, colleges, Canadian or foreign military establishments, Veterans Affairs Canada hospitals, trailers, tents and other facilities owned, controlled, authorized or arranged by the Crown, including other educational institutions that provide sleeping accommodation."

As you can see, there is nothing that states any particular standard.  Quite simply, if rations and quarters are available, you can be stuck in a mod across the hall from some Pte fresh off his QL3 and sharing a washroom with four other people, something I was lucky enough to experience for two months.  DCBA is cracking down on abuse of certain benefits in the CF, and IR is right up there.

It also uses the word "shall" a few times; you are aware of the definition of "shall" and "shall not"?? You are a clerk ...

"Shall not use training accomodations as long term quarters."

"The applicant’s rank or position shall not be considered as a factor except for Designated Residences."

Clerks are usually very keen on the proper interpretation and usage of "Shall/Shall Not" too.

The second quote brings me to another point as I've been told that a certain location is making IR troops below a certain rank level automatically live in quarters while others of certain higher ranks are automatically sent downtown to apartments. Also not allowed IAW policy. If a room that meets the Residential Standard is not available --- pers of both ranks go into apartments (or into a below standard room if the BComd will have a room that does meet the standard will become avail by the end of 6 months - he can not plan to keep people here longer IAW policy). If Residential standard rooms are available, then both go into shacks --- regardless of rank IAW the policy. If only one room is available, then IAW policy one goes into shacks and one goes into an apartment, and that apartment dweller is supposed to be whoever applied last (ie once the shacks was full) NOT whoever holds the higher rank.


Now as for the "no longer than 6 months", there is also a ref that states that it is the Comd resp to ensure that, if they do not have rooms that meet the residential standard, they have a resp to ensure that they instill plans to develop and modify rooms so that they do meet the standard.


I don't know about you, and I'm no clerk, but that's an awful lot of clear rules regarding IR people that you seem to think should be thrown out the window based upon your insistance of looking at training accomodations. They are different beasts. You'll note that your NJC ref above also refers to "training" accommodations.

You also dig through the appropriate refs and you'll find that NJC actually is "up to a 2 bedroom apartment" ... on the residential front.

You're missing something if you honestly believe that mod tents are acceptable accomodations for ANYONE posted long-term to any location (let alone those on IR who are entitled to residential accommodations) and that the NJC authorizes you to do so. A clerk eh? Glad you're not at this Unit as failure to read all the refs and interpreting those you read in whatever manner you want just wouldn't be acceptable around here.

 

[armyvern]

...

As you can see, there is nothing that states any particular standard.  Quite simply, if rations and quarters are available, you can be stuck in a mod across the hall from some Pte fresh off his QL3 and sharing a washroom with four other people, something I was lucky enough to experience for two months.

Were you on training at the time and collecting TD? Were you IR posted? Did you miss the "up to 6 months" in the ref?

DCBA is cracking down on abuse of certain benefits in the CF, and IR is right up there.

We call this accountibility for our actions (including yours as the clerk). You find abuse, then CHARGE their asses, move to immediately cease their IR status due to that abuse, and leave the rest of us out of the "collective punishment". Some of us are NOT IR voluntarily and do NOT abuse the system. Start properly and fully dealing with the abusers when you uncover abuse/fraud and then TB would not have to get involved and change the rules to screw us honest folks for whom IR is not a "personal choice". The big CF system sits back and does little to nothing about abusers and those riding the gravy train (and there's shitloads of them who "just don't want to move my family") is precisely WHY the rest of us get screwed.

I know a guy who went IR three years ago while his daughter was in grade 12 because he didn't want her to have to switch schools mid-way through her senior year. It was authorized. GOOD. It's 3 years later, his kid is graduated, his wife doesn't work so isn't be kept there by any job/medical issue etc, but he's STILL IR ... WHY?? It should have been authorized for only 6 months as his daughter would have been graduated and therefore his reason for requiring it DONE. And, better yet, why the hell is the taxpayer paying for it still? That's abuse. IR is intended as a short-term assistance to families seperated, not a life-long extended entitlement. And, there's lots of folks like this one out there ...

Deal with those cases, then you may start spouting off to me about your erroneous "right" to make me live in a mod tent.  :

 

[CountDC]

I know a guy who went IR three years ago while his daughter was in grade 12 because he didn't want her to have to switch schools mid-way through her senior year. It was authorized. GOOD. It's 3 years later, his kid is graduated, his wife doesn't work so isn't be kept there by any job/medical issue etc, but he's STILL IR ... WHY?? It should have been authorized for only 6 months as his daughter would have been graduated and therefore his reason for requiring it DONE. And, better yet, why the hell is the taxpayer paying for it still? That's abuse. IR is intended as a short-term assistance to families seperated, not a life-long extended entitlement. And, there's lots of folks like this one out there ...

and my 2 here - has anyone ever actually checked to see if he has been approved beyond 6 months?  Example - I received an SA claim for a member.  As a clerk I did what I am supposed to do and verified on his file that he did not already have a claim for the period and that he was approved.  My finding - not only was he not approved he hadn't been approved for the last 6 years.  He had a 1 year approval from when he was first posted. No extension ever requested or approved.  He continued to submit his claims, have them signed off and the clerks paid them.  No questions asked by anyone in the chain.  The outcome - he was approved for those claims already paid +6 months more to move his family.

As for the SE regulation - I highly recommend anyone looking at SE read through it and ask questions including any clerks that have not done SE in awhile.  I sure as hell will be if I ever have to do SE again.

 

[s_other]

It also uses the word "shall" a few times; you are aware of the definition of "shall" and "shall not"?? You are a clerk ...

You keep sticking to the original ref, which as has already been noted in this thread (not even by myself) as trumped by the CBI's.

The second quote brings me to another point as I've been told that a certain location is making IR troops below a certain rank level automatically live in quarters while others of certain higher ranks are automatically sent downtown to apartments.

I can't speak on that because, as you said, it varies on location.  However, in the case of Jr/Snr NCM designated barracks, an MWO is not going to be ordered to live in the Jr's barracks.  At that point in time it would be up to the BComd if they would auth the mbr to live on the economy due to lack of appropriate accommodations relevant to the rank level.

Now as for the "no longer than 6 months", there is also a ref that states that it is the Comd resp to ensure that, if they do not have rooms that meet the residential standard, they have a resp to ensure that they instill plans to develop and modify rooms so that they do meet the standard.

Never heard of it.

I don't know about you, and I'm no clerk, but that's an awful lot of clear rules regarding IR people that you seem to think should be thrown out the window based upon your insistance of looking at training accomodations. They are different beasts. You'll note that your NJC ref above also refers to "training" accommodations.

It says "federal government training centres."  I don't know if you're trying to equate this with a Maj posted to St-Jean being forced to sleep in recruit barracks, which is simply not the case.  However, some mbrs on Basic do qualify for SE and those "government training centres" are where they would sleep, unless we're now authorizing Week 4's to live on the economy.  Keep in mind the NJC is a federal regulation - some things in there don't apply to the CF because we simply don't support those facilities.

You also dig through the appropriate refs and you'll find that NJC actually is "up to a 2 bedroom apartment" ... on the residential front.

Seems irrelevant to the topic at hand, since we're talking about quarters/barracks.

You're missing something if you honestly believe that mod tents are acceptable accomodations for ANYONE posted long-term to any location (let alone those on IR who are entitled to residential accommodations) and that the NJC authorizes you to do so. A clerk eh? Glad you're not at this Unit as failure to read all the refs and interpreting those you read in whatever manner you want just wouldn't be acceptable around here.

You're going a little petty.  Obviously no BComd is going to recommend mbrs stay in a tent while on IR (it was an obvious exaggeration on the definition), and their accommodations will be appropriate for their rank.  The point at hand, however, is that this room standard that all mbrs on IR are entitled to doesn't exist, and is strictly dependent on what barracks are available at the applicable base.  At a Cpl level, your room in Borden could have a private washroom while the Jr NCM barracks in Petawawa would not.  I can't speak on the ref you keep harking back to, but the revamped CBI's do not reference it and would have a tough time getting approval if the matter was brought to DCBA.

 

[s_other]

Were you on training at the time and collecting TD? Were you IR posted? Did you miss the "up to 6 months" in the ref?

Temporary Relocation.  It's also the same barracks where all TR/IR Jr NCM's stay.

We call this accountibility for our actions (including yours as the clerk). You find abuse, then CHARGE their asses, move to immediately cease their IR status due to that abuse, and leave the rest of us out of the "collective punishment". Some of us are NOT IR voluntarily and do NOT abuse the system. Start properly and fully dealing with the abusers when you uncover abuse/fraud and then TB would not have to get involved and change the rules to screw us honest folks for whom IR is not a "personal choice". The big CF system sits back and does little to nothing about abusers and those riding the gravy train (and there's shitloads of them who "just don't want to move my family") is precisely WHY the rest of us get screwed.

IR is only not voluntarily if you're a service couple, which may be your situation and if it is, then you're completely in the right.

I know a guy who went IR three years ago while his daughter was in grade 12 because he didn't want her to have to switch schools mid-way through her senior year. It was authorized. GOOD. It's 3 years later, his kid is graduated, his wife doesn't work so isn't be kept there by any job/medical issue etc, but he's STILL IR ... WHY?? It should have been authorized for only 6 months as his daughter would have been graduated and therefore his reason for requiring it DONE. And, better yet, why the hell is the taxpayer paying for it still? That's abuse. IR is intended as a short-term assistance to families seperated, not a life-long extended entitlement. And, there's lots of folks like this one out there ...

This is where we're on the same page.  Situations change for mbrs that make IR no longer necessary, and people don't want to say anything because they love the gravy train (there's a hotel in Ottawa chock full of them).  They're going after the mbrs who have been on IR 5+ years because they don't want to move, or have separated from their spouse and no longer fit the criteria, or got married after their COS date so they could bank a few extra bucks.  People abuse IR in so many creative ways, but if used in its original intention, it's a great benefit.

 

[armyvern]

You keep sticking to the original ref, which as has already been noted in this thread (not even by myself) as trumped by the CBI's.

I can't speak on that because, as you said, it varies on location.  However, in the case of Jr/Snr NCM designated barracks, an MWO is not going to be ordered to live in the Jr's barracks.  At that point in time it would be up to the BComd if they would auth the mbr to live on the economy due to lack of appropriate accommodations relevant to the rank level.


Never heard of it.

It says "federal government training centres."  I don't know if you're trying to equate this with a Maj posted to St-Jean being forced to sleep in recruit barracks, which is simply not the case.  However, some mbrs on Basic do qualify for SE and those "government training centres" are where they would sleep, unless we're now authorizing Week 4's to live on the economy.  Keep in mind the NJC is a federal regulation - some things in there don't apply to the CF because we simply don't support those facilities.

Seems irrelevant to the topic at hand, since we're talking about quarters/barracks.

You're going a little petty.  Obviously no BComd is going to recommend mbrs stay in a tent while on IR (it was an obvious exaggeration on the definition), and their accommodations will be appropriate for their rank.  The point at hand, however, is that this room standard that all mbrs on IR are entitled to doesn't exist, and is strictly dependent on what barracks are available at the applicable base.  At a Cpl level, your room in Borden could have a private washroom while the Jr NCM barracks in Petawawa would not.  I can't speak on the ref you keep harking back to, but the revamped CBI's do not reference it and would have a tough time getting approval if the matter was brought to DCBA.

The NJC does indeed address "Residential Standards" for pers who are isolated, unaccompanied, foreign posting which are quite different than Training Standards; it is in one of the annexes or appendixs. It comes with a chart based upon household size & income and what is considered to be an acceptable "residential standard" for those pers/pay levels based on Canadian Census data and average expectations of average Canadians. All refs include the point that this is applicable to CF, RCMP as well etc. From the bottom of the scale (single person / lowest income) the brackets show a 3 room dwelling (Living, Kitchen, Bedroom) and it specifically states that there is to be a bathroom but that it does not count towards the room count. It then states that 2 berooms are acceptable because the 2nd bedroom can be used as a den / spare bedroom for 'visitors'.It also states that the rooms can be in an "open concept" whereby the sitting area, cook space etc are combined as one large area, but that these areas must exist.

I read it, yet again, today at work; it's there.

PS: All "quarters" are barracks; not all "quarters" residential quarters. Your ref says "quarters", dig further into the thing and you will indeed find the standard for "residential quarters" (which says it is applicable to CF, RCMP etc right in there, yet you say it is not).

Oh, and that scale and chart listed above from the NJC ... has every one being entitled to the very same until their pay grade hits 150 000K a year - then they get an upgrade. Funny that.

 

[armyvern]

You keep sticking to the original ref, which as has already been noted in this thread (not even by myself) as trumped by the CBI's.

I can't speak on that because, as you said, it varies on location.  However, in the case of Jr/Snr NCM designated barracks, an MWO is not going to be ordered to live in the Jr's barracks.  At that point in time it would be up to the BComd if they would auth the mbr to live on the economy due to lack of appropriate accommodations relevant to the rank level.

Never heard of it.

It says "federal government training centres."  I don't know if you're trying to equate this with a Maj posted to St-Jean being forced to sleep in recruit barracks, which is simply not the case.  However, some mbrs on Basic do qualify for SE and those "government training centres" are where they would sleep, unless we're now authorizing Week 4's to live on the economy.  Keep in mind the NJC is a federal regulation - some things in there don't apply to the CF because we simply don't support those facilities.

Seems irrelevant to the topic at hand, since we're talking about quarters/barracks.

You're going a little petty.  Obviously no BComd is going to recommend mbrs stay in a tent while on IR (it was an obvious exaggeration on the definition), and their accommodations will be appropriate for their rank.  The point at hand, however, is that this room standard that all mbrs on IR are entitled to doesn't exist, and is strictly dependent on what barracks are available at the applicable base.  At a Cpl level, your room in Borden could have a private washroom while the Jr NCM barracks in Petawawa would not.  I can't speak on the ref you keep harking back to, but the revamped CBI's do not reference it and would have a tough time getting approval if the matter was brought to DCBA.

I'm a little petty? I'll retreat to my tent and come up with a proper retort to that comment.  :

As for the yellow bit ... further ... Certain ranks and above being told automatically that they can go into apartments downtown (whether or not there is an empty room of residential standard in 'their quarters') while pers below "rank X" (I'll call it that for shits and giggles) are being told "too bad, you're IR, you will live in the shacks" (whether those shacks meet residential or not).

And, as a point of note ... I (an MWO) lived across the hall from an IR Cpl, and right next door to an IR Maj in the shacks during my last IR posting. Why was that? Because those were the suites that were designated residential for IR pers; at that point in time - rank didn't matter only the IR status was relevant. We were all smokers, so all was well in the world with us *gasp* 'mixing' --- the sky did not fall.

Training is a key word in your ref is "training". You do realize that every base is NOT a training base yes? You also realize that the Canada School of Public Service is a Training Facility too? Where everyone stays in hotels??

PS: No one has said anyone on training status is authorized to be in "residential accomodations" - we've clearly stated that tents/trg accommodations are FINE for IR pers while TRAINING (including your BMQ example guy below). We've said that way more than once now in this thread and well before you came along and entered the fray. As a matter of fact, I said it to you again just yesterday. Were you now expecting me to say something different ref this BMQ guy you've brought up for some ungodly reason?

The issue is, IR pers NOT on training status and their applicable standard.