Infantry Officer Course Question

[Polski]

Hi guys,

I was just wondering if Infantry officers get to attend the same courses that the NCM's do?  Reason being shouldn't they know a little about recce, jumping out of planes, snipping in order to command the NCM's?
Or are they just briefed on the courses?

 

[vonGarvin]

Hi guys,

I was just wondering if Infantry officers get to attend the same courses that the NCM's do?  Reason being shouldn't they know a little about recce, jumping out of planes, snipping in order to command the NCM's?
Or are they just briefed on the courses?

Hi Polski
Some courses are indeed open to both officers and NCMs.  Basic para is, in some cases, basic recce is but sniping is not.  Essentially, basic OSQ courses are usually reserved for NCMs (platoon support weapons course, basic para, basic comms, etc).  Remember that the old "phase" training is DP 1 for officers.  Advanced courses are usually open to both officers and NCMs, but not all. 
Our army has a strong tradition of a strong Non-Commissioned Officer corps: the MCpl and Sgts.  They do the "face to face" with the privates, the tactics, techniques and procedures of "sniping", "recce" and so forth.  Warrant Officers are the link between the NCO corps and the Commissioned Officer corps.  Trust me when I say this: an officer doesn’t have to know the ins and outs of setting up a GPMG per se; however, they are trained on their employment.  In short, they may say “I want the GPMG to do “this” (whatever that may be), and the NCOs will make it happen. 
Now, this isn’t universal naturally, but it’s more the case than not.
I hope this helps

 

[Quag]

Hi Polski
Some courses are indeed open to both officers and NCMs.  Basic para is, in some cases, basic recce is but sniping is not.  Essentially, basic OSQ courses are usually reserved for NCMs (platoon support weapons course, basic para, basic comms, etc).  Remember that the old "phase" training is DP 1 for officers.  Advanced courses are usually open to both officers and NCMs, but not all. 
Our army has a strong tradition of a strong Non-Commissioned Officer corps: the MCpl and Sgts.  They do the "face to face" with the privates, the tactics, techniques and procedures of "sniping", "recce" and so forth.  Warrant Officers are the link between the NCO corps and the Commissioned Officer corps.  Trust me when I say this: an officer doesn’t have to know the ins and outs of setting up a GPMG per se; however, they are trained on their employment.  In short, they may say “I want the GPMG to do “this” (whatever that may be), and the NCOs will make it happen. 
Now, this isn’t universal naturally, but it’s more the case than not.
I hope this helps

Just to clarify...Basic recce is not open to officers.  Only advanced recce.  Basic para is open to all officers without exception.

Snipers work for the CO of the unit.  They are under the control of a Unit Master Sniper (Sgt of sometimes WO).  They do not have a Pl Comd as an officer (Lt, Maj etc...).  Officers are never snipers.

Remember...officers are generalists...they dabble in a little of everything but for all intensive purposes are never really masters in anything quite like the NCM (O)'s are...

 

[Infanteer]

Just to clarify...Basic recce is not open to officers.

Officially, maybe - but officers have done it in the past; you can trust me on this one.

 

[Quag]

Just to clarify...Basic recce is not open to officers.

Officially, maybe - but officers have done it in the past; you can trust me on this one.

Perhaps by shadowing, but I know that officially (now I know stranger things have happened in the CF) an officer is only supposed to get his advanced recce (if so selected).  The rationale behind this is that DP1.1 trains INF O's in this domain.

However, I will leave this open to the INF among us to further comment on.

 

[Polski]

Thanks for all the valuable info!! Appreciate it immensely !

 

[MikeL]

Just to clarify...Basic recce is not open to officers. 

I know of two Lts on a Basic Recce course running now, they aren't shadowing but are students on the course.

 

[Quag]

I know of two Lts on a Basic Recce course running now, they aren't shadowing but are students on the course.

Are you sure its basic recce? Not advanced recce?

It is odd, as, by the TTP, the course is not open to officers.

Simply put, it doesn't serve them much use because in order to "by the book" be a Recce Pn Comd you have to have Advanced Recce...

 

[dangerboy]

If it is ran by a unit it is Basic Recce, Advanced Recce is only ran by CTC.  Sometimes units will put officers on a Basic Recce course in preparation for them going on the Advanced course.  I suspect that is what the unit is doing. They will finish this course and if they are successful they are rewarded by getting tortured in Gagetown on their Advanced.

 

[aesop081]

It is odd, as, by the TTP, the course is not open to officers.

TTP as in "Tactics, Tecniques and Procedures " ?

You must mean CTP - Course Trainigng Plan........but even that is not the document that says who can attend a specific course. The QS - Qualification Standard does.

 

[Quag]

TTP as in "Tactics, Tecniques and Procedures " ?

You must mean CTP - Course Trainigng Plan........but even that is not the document that says who can attend a specific course. The QS - Qualification Standard does.

I actually meant TP, must have held the T to long haha. 

QS usually precedes the TP in most Course Packages so I made the generalization.

So here is a question then...does said O carry the qualification.  Or do they only get the qual of Adv Recce.  The last QS I saw in the TP (or preceding the TP for picky people) stated officers could not be awarded the qualification.  This was about 8 months ago when I was working with a Recce Pn.

 

[Pointer]

If it is ran by a unit it is Basic Recce, Advanced Recce is only ran by CTC.  Sometimes units will put officers on a Basic Recce course in preparation for them going on the Advanced course.  I suspect that is what the unit is doing. They will finish this course and if they are successful they are rewarded by getting tortured in Gagetown on their Advanced.

This ^.

Sometimes the officers in the unit luck out and get on a Basic Recce Ptlmn course prior to going on Adv Recce, sometimes they don't.  I'd much rather have the basic recce prior to going on the adv course than to just jump into adv recce.  CAP/DP 1.1 really teaches you very, very little about recce.

 

[SeanNewman]

I concur that it would be rare for an officer to take part in a basic recce course, unless exactly like it was stated above; that it was at unit (or area at most) level and they were grooming him for advanced recce or Pathfinder.

The reason this would be rare is because there are a lot of other jobs junior officers can do at a unit for those couple months, and theoretically if he is a fully-qualified infantry officer he would have already been exposed to basic recce content.

On CAP/BMOQ-L he would have led a det-level patrol and taken part in a dozen of them.  Then on subsequent phases he would have done many more patrols and weeks upon weeks in the field.

Yes, the focus of those phases is leadership and not specifically recce, but it is usually enough to say that he still has a high probability of success stepping directly into an adv recce course.

For other courses like Para or MFP it’s all a matter of how likely he would ever use those skills in his job.  Every new officer going to a light battalion will likely be course loaded onto basic para so they could be employed in the Para Coy of that unit.  However, only a few would be identified as potential Recce Platoon commanders who would be loaded on MFP or Pathfinder.  Spots are limited and the Army is going to get a lot more use out of a Pte/Cpl going on that course than an officer in most cases.

As for the others (sniping, MG, etc), those would be incredibly rare for an officer to ever take part in because it should not be his focus.  He needs to have a solid understanding of how they are employed and what their strengths and weaknesses are if he is to be in command of those assets, but usually there is no need to be specialized because NCOs will always be able to do those sorts of things better because they’ve been doing it for decades.

 

[vonGarvin]

In the training plan for Advanced Reconnaissance Patrol, it has the prerequisites for candidates.  It says "...it is desirable that selected officers have this qualification (Basic Reconnaissance Patrolman), but it is not mandatory."  So, yes, unit CO's can take selected officers and have the complete the basic course.
Patrols on BMOQ-L are nowhere near the same as those on Basic Recce.

 

[SeanNewman]

Don't be knockin' my Bamockle (tm) course!

While I fully agree with you that the CAP TP does not = basic recce for patrolman skills, you would have to grant that as far as difficulty and gut checks go, a Ph3 up to 2006 or DP1.1 2009 and later (missing the 2007-09 time frame), can certainly be considered comparable.

I certainly know that on Ph 3 I spent months total doing dismounted patrolling, whether or not it was the TP focus or a PO check.

Then of course it was off to a battalion where they put soldier skillz first and not the big green beast ;-) ahem.

 

[macknightcr]

I have a couple questions, I am applying to RMC with Infantry being my number one selection.  If I am lucky enough to be selected, and then lucky enough to graduate I am curious to know about a few of these courses.  How would one be selected to: Parachute School, Reconnaissance School, Pathfinder School?  I would also like to take a medical school (just in case I am in a situation where a medic is not available).  This may sound crazy for all of these schools, as I said I am not in the Forces and have no real knowledge of the availability of said courses.  I am also kinda curious to know about summer courses at RMC (I know it's a different thread) would I be able to do a specialized course, like para, over the summer?

 

[JesseWZ]

Good Morning Macknightcr,

In regards to your first question: Focus first on passing BMOQ (the former IAP and BOTP), CAP, and DP 1.1 and 1.2 (the former Phase III and IV). Once you have been fully qualified as an infantry officer and are at your unit, then you can focus on the advanced courses.
In regards to medical school, ( I assume you mean medic training) all CF members receive first aid training, ideally it is annually.
I am not a medic, but I have doubts that as an infantry officer you can be sent to do a medic course; however many are now being offered the TCCC (Tactical Combat Casualty Care) course within their trades.
While at RMC, your initial and phase training will be conducted over the summers. The typical career path for new Officers is as such:

Your first summer: BMOQ (Formerly the Initial Assessment Period and Basic Officer Training)
Second Summer: CAP (Common Army Phase)
Third Summer: DP 1.1 (Dismounted Platoon Commander)
Fourth Summer: DP 1.2 (Mechanized Platoon Commander)

It is incredibly unlikely that you could get on any advanced course while in training still. You have yet to be giving back to the Forces in the form of working at a Unit as a qualified officer. Focus on your studies and passing your Phase Training first, then when you get to a unit worry about advanced qualifications.

Hope this helps,

Jesse

 

[mrpumo]

For all you hard chargers out there thinking of joining the infantry as an officer, talking about jumping out of airplanes, snipping, pathfinders,JTF2, soldier of fortune... know that the failure rates and medical RTU's (historically) are as follows:

BMOQ-20%
CAP or BMOQL or Phase 2....whatever... ~8%
IODP1.1 or Phase 3: between 45% and 55%
IODP1.2: ~8-10%

The night before PH 3 started we had a brief, the CSM point blank said half of you are going to fail. 5 days later 3 people we're already gone. Less than half of us were left at the end.

 

[SeanNewman]

MrPumo,

Your stats for BMOQ-L may be a larger time frame but are not representative of the last two serials, which have returned the course to its rightful step as a very challenging course meant to prepare you for follow on training.

Basically, it was very difficult for the last few years not to pass CAP.  Now, BMOQ-L is not the same story.

It has nothing to do with the training plan or the course content, it is all personality based and not letting people through who should not pass.  The standard is not higher, it's just enforced more.

 

[REDinstaller]

mrpumo,

What battle task is snipping??? Most officers I have run into don't even know how to spell barber let alone go to one. Spell check never identifies the wrong word used only the misspelled one.