German Cdos in AFG Dinged for "Nazi Symbol" on Vehicle

[vonGarvin]

The Afrika Korps was not a NAZI unit in WW2.  There were no SS units, just the 21st Panzer, 90th Light and later on the 15th Panzer I believe.  I have recently read two books on the North African battles, War Without Hate, and the biography of Col Hans Von Luck, a German officer in the DAK.  Both very interesting reads.  DAK has nothing to be ashamed of, and Germans should not be ashamed of them.  Now if these soldiers had painted "DAS REICH" or "TODTEN KOPF" on their vehicles, different story.

I think what you meant to say was the the Afrika Korps was a WEHRMACHT formation.  Regardless, the Wehrmacht was a tool of the 3rd Reich and therefore, as much "nazi" as the Todt Organisation (labour force).  The Waffen-SS, that's a different story, not to be confused with the Allgemeine-SS (which included concentration camp guards, the Gestapo, etc).

Anyway, hijack ends.

 

[vonGarvin]

Let us not forget also, that the commander of the Afrika Korps, General Erwin Rommel, was certainly no Nazi.

Although not a member of the Nazi Party, and although he lead his 7th Panzer Division in 1940 with elan and as a "gentleman warrior", and although he commanded the DAK fairly welll within the laws of armed conflict, and although he commanded German forces in a similar manner in France in 1944, Feldmarschall Erwin Rommel was an opportunist, extremely popular in Germany.  Nazi?  No, certainly not.  But I think that his "legend" increased following his death in 1944.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Umm.... could someone please translate the german text so those of us who don't know german can see what is in that quote ??? thx

 

[vonGarvin]

Sure
the German says the following:
"In order to subjectate the free world in the name of the Fourth Reich, we must first create a diversion.  Firstly, the KSK will emblazon their vehicles with a revamped, or denazified DAK emblem."
OK, just kidding.

I'll translate it later.  Keep watching this thread!

von G

 

[RangerRay]

I can definitely understand why Germans would shy away from the symbols of the former National Socialist regime.

But I could never understand why they equate the symbols and institutions of Imperial Germany (1871-1918) as "Nazi".  After all, it was Chancellor Bismark and Kaiser Wilhelm I that created the modern German state.  Those few Germans that advocate for a return of the Kaiser as a constitutional monarch, such as we have here in Canada, are called "Nazis".  Even the the official state flag of the Bundesrepublik, the modern tri-colour with the eagle coat-of-arms, is seen widely as "Nazi".  To me, these are a completely different set of symbols than those used by the National Socialist regime of the 30s and 40s.

 

[vonGarvin]

My translation of that German text:
"Right-wing extremists’ ideologies arise from the two roots of Nationalism and Racism.  They are imprinted with the idea that ethnic affiliation with a nation or race possesses the greatest meaning for the individual.  For them all other things, including human and civil rights are less important.  They support a political system, in which the nation and the state merge.  (“Ideology of the Volk”).  This actually comes down to an anti-pluralistic system that leaves no room for the democratic decision-making process.  In actuality, Right-wing extremism is not ideologically homogeneous.  An overestimation of ethnic affiliation and opposition to the principle of equality can be found amongst all right-wing extremists, however.  In its overall appearance, right-wing extremism does not present a uniform, isolated phenomenon.  It shows itself in various forms, in particular in juvenile subcultures of violent skinheads, in neo-Nazi groups that support a totalitarian state, in political parties that seek to achieve political change through the electoral process and in the writings of authors and publishing houses who agitate by intellectual or propagandistic means.  This anti-constitutional and contemptuous ideology manifests itself in right-wing extremists’ acts of hostile criminal offences, mainly directed against ethnic minorities.  In order to combat a rise of right-wing extremist acts of violence, and in order to prevent illegal extremist propaganda initiatives, several measures were implemented.  In particular, association with various groups and public assembly were banned.  Between the end of 1992 and July 2006, there have been 24 laws enacted by the Federal ministry of the Interior (Bundesministerium des Innern), as well as by the ministries of various Bundeslaender. (“Provinces” or “states”)

 

[vonGarvin]

I can definitely understand why Germans would shy away from the symbols of the former National Socialist regime.

But I could never understand why they equate the symbols and institutions of Imperial Germany (1871-1918) as "Nazi".  After all, it was Chancellor Bismark and Kaiser Wilhelm I that created the modern German state.  Those few Germans that advocate for a return of the Kaiser as a constitutional monarch, such as we have here in Canada, are called "Nazis".  Even the the official state flag of the Bundesrepublik, the modern tri-colour with the eagle coat-of-arms, is seen widely as "Nazi".  To me, these are a completely different set of symbols than those used by the National Socialist regime of the 30s and 40s.

The first flag of "modern" Germany (1870s) was a red, white and black flag, the colours coming from Prussia.  Following its defeat in world war one, Germany eventually adopted a Red, white and gold flag during the so-called "Weimar" republic.  The origins of these colours stems from an incident in 1848 in which university students in Jena (Saxony, I believe) were massacred by french troops during a protest.  The incident became an early rally cry for the unification of the German States into one state: Germany (Prior to 1870, "Germany" as such did not exist.  There was a bunch of German Speaking states in central Europe, including Bavaria, Prussia, Saxony, Baden, and so forth).  The colours of the uniforms of the students of the university at Jena were adopted for this movement.  The uniforms were black with red piping and gold buttons, hence the "Schwarz, Rot, Gold".  How this flag could be identified as a nazi symbol is absurd.  Following his acsension as Fuehrer in 1933, the flag of Germany reverted back to the "Prussian" or Imperial colours of Red, White and Black.

 

[George Wallace]

.......  Even the the official state flag of the Bundesrepublik, the modern tri-colour with the eagle coat-of-arms, is seen widely as "Nazi".  To me, these are a completely different set of symbols than those used by the National Socialist regime of the 30s and 40s.

???  I have never in all my travels heard this.  If anything, the flag with the eagle coat-of-arms, not the Shield, may have been construed by some as being 'Communist' or 'Imperialist', but I have never heard of it being thought of as being 'Nazi'.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Hamburg-Jung - thank you VERY much for sharing your insights.  When I first posted the original piece, part of my quest was for some insights on how Germans deal with their history.  Very much appreciated - looking forward to more intriguing information.

 

[RangerRay]

???  I have never in all my travels heard this.  If anything, the flag with the eagle coat-of-arms, not the Shield, may have been construed by some as being 'Communist' or 'Imperialist', but I have never heard of it being thought of as being 'Nazi'.

When I was an exchange student many years ago, I bought one of these flags because the plain tri-colour looked boring in comparison.  When I showed to my exchange partner and friend, he told me not to show it off publicly because people will think I'm a Nazi.  This really confused me because this is the same flag that flies at government buildings and Bundeswehr bases.  ???

EDIT: picture of flag in question to clarify:

 

[George Wallace]

When I was an exchange student many years ago, I bought one of these flags because the plain tri-colour looked boring in comparison.  When I showed to my exchange partner and friend, he told me not to show it off publicly because people will think I'm a Nazi.  This really confused me because this is the same flag that flies at government buildings and Bundeswehr bases.  ???

All I can say, is that your friend was either an idiot or a 'racist'.  There are many who still hold grudges from the Second World War and Korean War, and don't actually know the difference.  In this case, I would almost bet that anything German was 'Nazi' in your friend's mind.

 

[vonGarvin]

When I was an exchange student many years ago, I bought one of these flags because the plain tri-colour looked boring in comparison.  When I showed to my exchange partner and friend, he told me not to show it off publicly because people will think I'm a Nazi.  This really confused me because this is the same flag that flies at government buildings and Bundeswehr bases.  ???

EDIT: picture of flag in question to clarify:

Hey, I too was an exchange student in Germany, and I too purchased one of those flags.  As I recall, I believe it is used to signify elements of the Federal Government, vice the Federal Republic.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Thx for the translation Von Garvin  :cheers:

 

[George Wallace]

What would he have said about this one I bought?

 

[vonGarvin]

What would he have said about this one I bought?

Commie rat!

 

[vonGarvin]

Thx for the translation Von Garvin  :cheers:

You're welcome

 

[geo]

Communists!!!

Then again, the Herr Chancelor is a Fraulein and she's east German to boot.........

 

[vonGarvin]

Communists!!!

Then again, the Herr Chancelor is a Fraulein and she's east German to boot.........

I guess "Herr Bundeskanzler" is not "Frau Bundeskanzlerin"

An Ossie too!  The horror!  I wonder what she did prior to November 1989!

 

[geo]

Where the Japanese have never truly acknowledged misdeeds for their foray into China & the south pacific, The Germans would appear to have some problems living alongside their history....

And to think that the Swastika / bent cross, is a Hindu symbol

 

[vonGarvin]

The Swatika, or "Hakenkreuz" in German (which literally means "crooked cross") did not originate from the Bhuddist Swastika of old, but rather was a deliberate twisting of the Christian Cross by anti-semites in Europe in the 19th Century.  It was later adapted by national socialists in Germany.  The Hakenkreuz is definately an anti-semitic symbol both in origin and intent, whereas it's similarity to the Swastika is more by happenstance than by any deliberate twisting of an old symbol into a new meaning.