German Cdos in AFG Dinged for "Nazi Symbol" on Vehicle

[1feral1]

I don't see the big deal about it. The 'iron Cross' symbol is widely used with the German military, regardless even with the old WWII palm tree.

Its all media hype and as usual, blowing things up out of proportion.

Yes, as usual, I am disgusted in the media, and nothing changes.


Wes

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

And this is "news"?  The palm tree appeared on German Battle Group vehicles over two years ago and has certainly been seen by the entire German chain of command, including (I would guess) the Chancellor, who visited the BG in early 2005.  It bears a superficial resemblance to the Africa Corps symbol, but that's as far as the "Nazi" connection goes.

What garbage.

 

[FSTO]

Someone please tell me why the Luftwaffe Iron Cross is not a Nazi era symbol

While the Bundswhere use of the Iron Cross is considered a Nazi symbol.

 

[KevinB]

German symbol yes -- Nazi symbol no.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Is this the "Nazi" symbol I have read about in the media recently?  Why am I not surprised?  :   


Retards

 

[Munxcub]

I think the one in the news has something to do with a palm tree as well as the iron cross. There was a post a few days ago about that one.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52712.0.html

</hijack> Back to you FSTO

 

[vonGarvin]

For what its worth, the so-called "Iron Cross" to which you refer is more correctly known as the "Maltakreuz", or "Maltese Cross", the design upon which the Iron Cross is based.
It is a symbol as German as the Maple Leaf is Canadian. 
This whole "stink" arose when it was reported that certain German Armed Forces troops were using a modified Afrika Korps symbol on their vehicles in Afghanistan.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52712.0.html

 

[Signalman150]

Okay, I'm a day late and a dollar short: someone's been complaining about the Iron Cross as a NAZI symbol?  WTF!

The cross used by the Luftwaffe (and shown on the tank turret) is actually called a Cross Patte, and is an ancient heraldic symbol. It's been in use on German aircraft since WWI.  Indeed, if anyone wanted to make a case for a "NAZI" cross, it would be the Greek Cross, (similar in shape to the Swiss Cross) that was used on their aircraft during WWII.  But again, since it's an ancient heraldic symbol, it's hardly NAZI in origin.

On a related topic, it's a sad thing that the Swastika got the rap it did.  The symbol is older than the original Germanic tribes: it was a good luck symbol in Hindu mysticism, and was a key symbol in early Celtic worship (pre-Christian era).  But all it takes is one lousy little dictator, and BAM!  An ancient and revered cross becomes symbola non grata.  Hmmmm.

 

[Koenigsegg]

Well, at least the Germans have their sense of Humour in Afghanistan....However twisted some may find it to be...
I am on the fence.

That is in reply to Von Garvin.  Sorry for the Hijack

 

[vonGarvin]

Cross Pattee.  That's it.  Thanks

As for WWII, this may be "urban legend", but the black and white crosses on German vehicles (land and otherwise) were originally white crosses, but the troops added black due to its obvious disadvantage (it made an excellent aiming mark)

(Pz III AusF D in Poland)

 

[KevinB]

I know a Canadian unit that adopted the Palm tree too 

 

[FSTO]

But on that photo of the tank (or APC) turrent is the Palm tree?

 

[Signalman150]

I know a Canadian unit that adopted the Palm tree too 

Then using the same logic, they MUST HAVE BEEN NAZIS!  OH NOOOO, MR. BILL.

 

[vonGarvin]

From a Afrika Korps veterans site I found somewhere on the net:
(note: it has been "de-nazified" in that the Swastika, or Hakenkreuz has been replaced)

 

[Brad Sallows]

Considering how relatively humanely the war in the desert was fought, I can't imagine anyone being embarrassed by, or believing anyone should be embarrassed by, the DAK palm tree.

 

[Hamburg-Jung]

Good day there folks,
I was just curious of that topic because I'm from Germany and I'm currently working for the Canadian Forces. To eliminate all questions first, here is a little text from the "Bundes Werfassungsschutzt".:

Rechtsextremistische Ideologieansätze erwachsen aus den beiden Wurzeln Nationalismus und Rassismus. Sie sind von der Vorstellung geprägt, dass die ethnische Zugehörigkeit zu einer Nation oder Rasse die größte Bedeutung für das Individuum besitzt. Ihr sind alle
anderen Interessen und Werte, auch die Menschen- und Bürgerrechte, untergeordnet.
Rechtsextremisten propagieren ein politisches System, in dem als angeblich natürliche Ordnung Staat und Volk in einer Einheit verschmelzen ("Ideologie der Volksgemeinschaft"). Tatsächlich läuft dies auf ein antipluralistisches System hinaus, das für demokratische Entscheidungsprozesse keinen Raum lässt. Zwar ist der
Rechtsextremismus in Deutschland nicht ideologisch homogen. Eine Überbewertung ethnischer Zugehörigkeit und eine gegen den Gleichheitsgrundsatz gerichtete Fremdenfeindlichkeit sind allerdings bei allen Rechtsextremisten festzustellen.
Auch hinsichtlich seines Erscheinungsbildes stellt der Rechtsextremismus kein einheitliches, geschlossenes Phänomen dar. Er artikuliert sich in unterschiedlichen Formen, insbesondere in einer jugendlichen Subkultur gewaltbereiter rechtsextremistischer Skinheads, in neonazistischen Gruppierungen, die einen totalitären Staat propagieren, in Parteien, die auch über die Beteiligung an Wahlen politischen Einfluss erreichen wollen, im Schrifttum rechtsextremistischer Autoren und Verlage, die intellektuell oder propagandistisch agitieren.
Die verfassungsfeindliche, zumeist menschenverachtende Ideologie entlädt sich in rechtsextremistischen, insbesondere fremdenfeindlichen Straftaten, die sich gegen Minderheiten allein wegen ihrer ethnischen Zugehörigkeit richten.
Zur Eindämmung der rechtsextremistischen Gewalttaten und zur Verhinderung strafbarer rechtsextremistischer Propagandaaktivitäten wurde eine Vielzahl staatlicher Maßnahmen gegen den Rechtsextremismus ergriffen (insbesondere Vereins- und Versammlungsverbote). Seit Ende 1992 erfolgten 24 Verbote (Stand: Juli 2006) rechtsextremistischer Organisationen durch das Bundesministerium des Innern bzw. durch Innenministerien/-senate der Länder.

I left this text in German because I've figured out that this forum has a couple of VERY smart heads with lots of good german skills like (Bleistift and Kugelschreiber... pretty advance I have to say... :threat:

All in all it is like that: Using any symbol that could be refered to or is representing a symbol used by the Nazi Regime is forbidden in public and especially in government organisations such as the Bundeswehr. Furthermore, altering and manipiulating any government logo such as the Bundeswehr logo is forbidden by law - unless it is used in accordance with the Department of National Defence (German).
Also, using and altering a government vehicle such as the KSK did in such a manner that it does not refer to the mission is not permitted because it is against the rules of conduct. That is like taking of the Maple Leaf and but back the British Flag onto our vehicles. We would represent ourselfes in such a manner that we could represent another nation.
Plus it is not responsable as a german soldier to joke with the past. It is a hard history and the reputation of Germany has to be rebuild. And that does not work with a german KSK soldier(s) same as JTF2 by the way, representing germanys elite troop.
Hope I've cleard out a couple of things.

 

[vonGarvin]

Hamburg:
there is a lot of 'right-extremist' references in the red (and thus hard to read ) quote you have inserted.  That is a problem for Germans I found when I lived there.  As with Canadians, they wish to be proud of their heritage, and rightly so.  Beethoven, Brecht, even Marx and Engels, Luther and many many others were "Germans" of whom they could be proud.  (I put the word Germans in quotes, because I think Luther was Saxon, not German, as Germany did not exist as a state until 1870 or 1871, I believe, but I digress)
In its struggle to recognise freedom of the individual without resorting to the horrors of the Third Reich, Germany has a problem for which I cannot fathom a solution.  In spite of the overall aims of the Reich, many German soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS, airmen of the Luftwaffe and sailors of the Kriegsmarine fought with honour and pride.  Rommel is still a name of pride, as is Moelders and Canaris, dare I say.  If Joseph Dietrich were a Oberstgeneral in the Wehrmacht instead of a Oberstgruppenführer in the Waffen-SS, he may have still a place of honour today.
Unlike Germany, Canada does not have such a troubled history.  In this struggle to which I've alluded, Germany is caught between wishing freedom of thought and constraining extremism.  Nationalism is not a dirty word, and Bundeswehr soldiers with whom I served in Kabul were proud of their heritage.  One major talked proudly of his grandfather who was an officer in the Wehrmacht, who served in Russia.  He was still alive in 2003, and in one letter asked him how life was "on the Eastern Front", an obvious reference to World War Two, or the "Rußland Feldzug".
Anyway, keep the posts coming.  Though I can speak German, that does not make me one.  Perhaps you could form a new thread to discuss this "situation" in Germany
Cheers

von G.

 

[Hamburg-Jung]

Von G.
I have both citizenships and I've lived in Germany all my life. I'm here now for 2 years serving in the CF and I'm still proud of all the things that my family and friends did and represent in the past-present-and future. I love our musical, literal and ethical cultures as much as every other german. It is just that in what way we show our patriotism. We as germans are not really likely to but a german Flag on our car or on a flagpost infront of our house. It would be too patriotic. But deep within I can garante you are we all proud of the accomplishments we have had over the last 60 years. The First and Second WW is just something that has happend in history. It seems to be part of the worlds history. Terrible things have had happened during that time but I wasn't involed in it. My Grandfather for instance was a pilot for the Luftwaffe against americans canadians and british planes. And he told me yesterday that he dosn't regret doing it because it was the enemy and a war has always two sides. To the question whether he questioned the war - he silenced a little and answerd: "Of course - I was a animal doctor and now I was forced to sit in a plane fighting a war that none wanted because some austrian bastard told us do to so. I wasn't in the position to question the war due to that fact that I love my family and I do not want any harm to my family." A war has many faces and many different views. Every war is seen from a different prospective. It is just a matter of how to sell it to the public. Every war means money for the countries participating in it. When my grandfather was send to bomb Halifax N.S. in 1943 he was lucky because I ended up as a POW in MedicinHat AB. The Canadians were the friendliest enemy when it comes to POW. My grandfathers brother was send on a mission to england and never came back. He flew with a sqn towards the oil reserve stations in the north of england but he must have been guned down. I feel like thanking the canadians for treating german officers the way they did. 3 warm meals a day, heat and water. What else do you need.
Anyway, I'm drifting to far off. What I'm trying to say here is that my grandfather is still proud of what he did. He fought against an enemy that would either kill his brothers in arms or his family. There was no time as to think about why he was fighting against. But I believe there was never time to do so in the WW2. My Dad was also in the Luftwaffe after the war of course. He served there as a pilot for several years before switching to become a commercial pilot for Lufthansa. He was proud of what he was doing because his heritage and history never gave him any reason not too. Of course the bad things happened, but we have to move on. GET-R-DONE as J. the cable guy would say it in his southern american english. We as germans have to move on in order to eliminate the bad critics in the world and rebuild our status as europs leading country.
I'm not gonna create a new topic about german patriotism or any other stuff because I tought it would succeed in this forum as a constructive and well discussion. Cheer v G.
Hamburg

 

[peaches]

The Afrika Korps was not a NAZI unit in WW2.  There were no SS units, just the 21st Panzer, 90th Light and later on the 15th Panzer I believe.  I have recently read two books on the North African battles, War Without Hate, and the biography of Col Hans Von Luck, a German officer in the DAK.  Both very interesting reads.  DAK has nothing to be ashamed of, and Germans should not be ashamed of them.  Now if these soldiers had painted "DAS REICH" or "TODTEN KOPF" on their vehicles, different story.

 

[cameron]

While I was (and still am) sickened by the pictures of German soldiers posing with skeletons, i'm somewhat baffled about the furor over the KSK using a symbol of a palm tree and an iron cross.  After all as other army.ca members on this topic have pointed out the iron cross is a symbol commonly used by Germany 's armed forces.  If it were a palm tree and a swastika i'd be the first to express disgust and disapproval, but trying to find a link between the symbol the KSK are using in A'stan and the one used by the Afrika Korps in WWII is stretching things too much in my opinion.  Let us not forget also, that the commander of the Afrika Korps, General Erwin Rommel, was certainly no Nazi.