Fleet Managment: Army plan for pre-positioning eqpt

[Infanteer]

I'm not.   Simulators, MILES, ATS Range, and TEWTs  can offer much in terms of quality training to our soldiers and leaders.   My remark was a tongue-in-cheek caution that relying on these in lieu of live fire training in order to save money could be a bad choice that puts me and you in a body bag.

 

[Yard Ape]

I think they are hoping that the simulators make up for it.

In the case of a LAV-25 turret, you need the vehicle to run the simulator.  Even here simulation has no alternative for training under fleet managment.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I personally like the idea but there are a couple of caveats:

1)  We need to have enough gear to spare so that it does not interfere with training.
2)  We need to use the US tried-and-true model of fixed units and could no longer deploy "mix-and-match" groups.
3)  We need the sealift ready to move it on short notice otherwise the whole exercise is a waste of time.

JMHO,



Matthew. 

 

[Yard Ape]

1)   We need to have enough gear to spare so that it does not interfere with training.

If we had that much equipment, there would be no need for this fleet managment plan.

 

[Kirkhill]

Eventually the Army will have a suite of kit for a battlegroup pre-positioned at Longue Pointe depot in Montreal, our primary SPOE (Sea Port of Embarkation)

pbi, is this in anticipation of Global Warming or are we only anticipating expeditions after the ice goes out?

Why not Halifax (Shearwater) as a staging ground?

 

[George Wallace]

pbi, is this in anticipation of Global Warming or are we only anticipating expeditions after the ice goes out?

Why not Halifax (Shearwater) as a staging ground?

Facilities exist at Longue Point.   They do no exist at Halifax or Shearwater.   Nor do they exist in Vancouver or Esquimault.  


Gw

 

[Kirkhill]

Gotcha George, thanks.

Though I am still left wondering if the facilities wouldn't be better placed at Shearwater, or Esquimalt (especially given an Asian/Mideast orientation).

 

[Inch]

Gotcha George, thanks.

Though I am still left wondering if the facilities wouldn't be better placed at Shearwater, or Esquimalt (especially given an Asian/Mideast orientation).

Not to mention the fact that neither Esquimalt nor Halifax freeze in the winter. There's lots of ground here in Shearwater with quick access to the harbour, there's even a jetty just down the hill on the Shearwater side of the harbour. Once we get the MHP buildings under way, that'll open up old hangars, even if it's a temporary measure until more permanent facilities can be built.

 

[pbi]

I have often wondered the same thing, having taken part in a few deployments/redeployments over the years in which we were "racing the ice" at Montreal with our cargo vessels. I understand that the facilities exist at Montreal, but do major port facilities not also exist at Halifax and Vancouver (rhetorical question)? I agree with the idea that we need to think more about a Pacific regional deployment, and that maybe we should have dedicated (or leased) facilities there. Further, I have heard that the location of CFB Gagetown was chosen back in the 1950s partly because it was not too far from the port of St John, but was connected by rail links to the rest of Canada. However, to the best of my knowledge we have never staged out of St Johns so perhaps this  concept was never really applied. Cheers.

 

[George Wallace]

I tend to agree that the ice free ports of Halifax and St John are probably a better choice, but so far most of the deployments have been from Petawawa.  Facilities would have to be built in both these cities and those in the West to house pre-positioned equipment.  Currently they exist at Long Point, and Petawawa is a short road/rail move.  I am currently against any such plan to pre-position equipment in Long Point or anywhere in the country along with the movement of equipment to Wainwright without a major equipment purchase.  It necessitates the robbing of all three Bdes to fill these two agendas and valuable training and maintenance is being lost.  

From previous experience, the rotation of War Reserve Stock has been very maintenance heavy.  Equipment coming out of War Stock was usually in a very sad state of repair, necessitating many man hours to get it operational.  

A Ready Bde Gp in Gagetown would be a more favourable option in my opinion.  Build up the waterfront and Airport in St John and it would probably work.

GW

 

[pbi]

I tend to agree that the ice free ports of Halifax and St John are probably a better choice, but so far most of the deployments have been from Petawawa

But what about the deployments out of 1 CMBG and 5ieme GBC? Surely these were not staged out of Petawawa? I have deployed a few times from 1 CMBG and can never recall having anything to do with Pet on any of them. Cheers.

 

[George Wallace]

Sorry......Should have specified "equipment".........I know it is being shuffled around a lot.....We sent stuff off to Afghanistan, then more to 5 Bde so they could train to replace us........and then we had none.......

GW

 

[KevinB]

I guess no one at NDHQ studied what happend to the majority of the stuff they shipped the Israelis prior to some of their 60-70 fracas's.
The artillery was toast - the seals and other stuff in the recupirator/recoil system where dried out.  Tracks where seized and engine pooched.

Now how are we hiring to maintain this stuff?

and my biggest pet peeve with CMTC - Wainwright is SMALL...  You cant even have a decent mech BN ex there...
Let alone LIVE FIRE a 25mm on a battle run

 

[pbi]

I have to agree with Kevin B here, through years of bitter experience. "Everybody's truck" is "nobody's truck". A couple of examples are:

1 PPCLI AVGP Fleet: Left standing uncovered for months and months while the battalions went overseas, went on block leave, or did non-AVGP things, these vehicles suffered dried and cracked seals, gaskets and weatherstripping, occluded optics and extensive weathering. Left out in the cold, in their later years they frequently would not start in the winter. And, mind you, these were vehicles that were assigned to companies, in a battalion with a dedicated Maint Pl;   and

Horror Tales of Kit Tasked To Other Units/Bdes: It was SOP to get this stuff back in shyte order, with 5ieme GBC being the worst offender, IMHO. I can remember when I was OC Admin 1 PP we got stuff   back from 2PP that was in such wretched shape that we took photos and sent them to Bde. (Of course, I'm quite sure that 2PP got its own share of junk, too);

I understand what we are trying to achieve in WFM, but I wonder what the results will be. Also, how do you teach a soldier to take pride in, and care of, kit he nevers even sees for most of the year? My suggestion would be:

a) a beastly big maint/QM org at CMTC, like a USARNG MATES;

b) hideous and exemplary punishment for "dumping and running", including but not limited to rtn the unit to CMTC or disciplinary action against CO and officers responsible; and

c) instilling in all ranks the need to take care of all gear, all the time, regardless of who gave it to you or for what.

Without these things, or something with similar effect, I think that I know all too well what will be the eventual fate of the WFM fleets. Cheers.

 

[George Wallace]

Pbi

Exactly!

GW

 

[ArmyRick]

pbi, In ref to 2 VP (my old stompin grounds) with shyte kit, are refering to the 2 times we borrowed Grizzlies in the 90s (since we were M113 at the time) in preparation for our tours?

 

[pbi]

I can't recall the exact reason now, and I only recall lending them once to 2PP, but that sounds like it could have been a good reason. Cheers.

 

[Bartok5]

Those here who have "nay sayed" pretty much have it right.  To get the entire picture of just how dire our situation is however, you have to couple "Whole Fleet Management" with the "Managed Readiness Cycle".  See my post in the "Is ATOF Broken" thread for a bit of insight.

The bottom line is that we as an institution have finally reached a point of "damage control" absurdity where the "bean counters" are now running the ship.  It is tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.....

The "bean counters" are now controlling how we will deploy, AND how we distribute the kit.  The former is an utter recipe for disaster.  The latter simply ensures that those who deploy will not have had the requisite "hands-on" training to avoid the debacle.

One can only hope that this is the bottom of the "cycle" with an upswing to follow.  If not, I seriously fear for the institution - at least as I know it.  When the "numbers men" are permitted to run all critical aspects of the ship, you just know that you are in a world of hurt...... 

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Good thread - surprised that I missed it.

In the absence of any new kit (LAVs etc) do any of the "nay sayers" have a counter proposal?

Dave

 

[jmacleod]

The Fleet Management Plan was put forward by the new CDS, General Hillier. Bossi is right, the
Canadian Army was well positioned with an excellent FMP in Germany until ADM Fowler (of Somalia
intrigue) came on the scene. My company proposed an Unsolicted Proposal (USP) to DND and
PW&GSC to position the facility at CFB Gagetown (not Montreal PQ) with airborne logistical
support from the Frederiction Airport, and shipborne support from Saint John NB - one of our
great deep water ports - not even a reply from DND (a surprise actually) and no political support
from the Liberal MP in Saint John NB - if the plan evolves it will be focused on Montreal and Dorval
which is actually fairly stupid - my rant for today - Regards, MacLeod