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Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

  • Thread starter Thread starter Yard Ape
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Yep! Betcha there are many messes internally as 48th wont share with QORC etc.

I don't know how Moss Park is configured these days but I was there when it opened. It was built for four units: the QOR, 48th, 7th Toronto and the RCEME and RCASC coys that would later amalgamate into a service bn. The basement had a vehicle park and weapons and supply stores. The parade square floor had offices for all the units and a total of four classrooms - one in each corner. The upper deck was nothing but messes - an officers mess and Sgts mess for each unit and a single wet and single dry canteen for all of us other ranks for all four units combined. I think most of the larger multi-unit armouries followed that pattern. The social aspects of such messes were an important recruiting feature in days when there were few other socializing options.

The concept was not much different for RegF bases. The 1950s/60s construction created unit lines clustered around a parade square with a headquarters building, a training building, a quartermaster stores a sergeants mess, junior ranks club and a pair of barrack. The officers' mess was usually a little ways away. In the 1970s we started amalgamating messes which was a process heavily resisted by most units.

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A few years ago the majority of the armoury was messes. The top was almost all messes except one classroom that was 7 Tor. One of the bands (think 48th) had a band mess on the main floor and my understanding was that there was another unofficial mess in the bands basement area. 4 units, each with at least 2 messes and one combined JR's. At least 10 messes and units were complaining that they didn't have enough classrooms. Wonder why but don't dear to suggest combing messes and free up space for classrooms or offices. Years ago in Halifax there were 4 units sharing the armoury with one mess for each rank group totalling 3 messes and a third of the JRs had an accordion wall so it could be closed and used as a classroom on training nights.
 
A few years ago the majority of the armoury was messes. The top was almost all messes except one classroom that was 7 Tor. One of the bands (think 48th) had a band mess on the main floor and my understanding was that there was another unofficial mess in the bands basement area. 4 units, each with at least 2 messes and one combined JR's. At least 10 messes and units were complaining that they didn't have enough classrooms. Wonder why but don't dear to suggest combing messes and free up space for classrooms or offices. Years ago in Halifax there were 4 units sharing the armoury with one mess for each rank group totalling 3 messes and a third of the JRs had an accordion wall so it could be closed and used as a classroom on training nights.
2 messes in Minto and 3 in Strachan armoury - all shared and used as conference rooms or Multi-Purpose Rooms when not in bar usage. Is this multi mess per unit thing an Ontarioism maybe? I've never heard of that out West beyond the little mess in the Start lines separate from the base messes.
 
2 messes in Minto and 3 in Strachan armoury - all shared and used as conference rooms or Multi-Purpose Rooms when not in bar usage. Is this multi mess per unit thing an Ontarioism maybe? I've never heard of that out West beyond the little mess in the Start lines separate from the base messes.
Older armouries have it, mawata still has separate Jr, Snr and officer messes.
 
2 messes in Minto and 3 in Strachan armoury - all shared and used as conference rooms or Multi-Purpose Rooms when not in bar usage. Is this multi mess per unit thing an Ontarioism maybe? I've never heard of that out West beyond the little mess in the Start lines separate from the base messes.
Probably has more to do with the size of units and armouries and their age. Brandon was interesting. The officers and Sgts mess were separated but shared a common bar which was set up in a small connecting hallway. The Jnr ranks were on the opposite side of the armouries. Easily done because just the one unit.

One would think that with the costs associated with keeping a bar that more sharing would go on but ...

And then there are museums ... but that's a whole different story.

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2 messes in Minto and 3 in Strachan armoury - all shared and used as conference rooms or Multi-Purpose Rooms when not in bar usage. Is this multi mess per unit thing an Ontarioism maybe? I've never heard of that out West beyond the little mess in the Start lines separate from the base messes.
It may just be a Toronto thing.

I’m in eastern Ontario.

One armoury has 4 units and they share. The other one has 2 units and shares (it previously also shared its mess with the ndhq jr ranks for some time)
Until it collapsed the fd arty and nav res armoury shared

The only units in my cbg that I am aware of that have single unit messes are isolated armouries with one unit.
 
My screed about Armouries and messes was driven by a recent news article committing $250M+ to maintain unfit for purpose buildings because History. (Can't find the article, but this one from a year or so ago is on topic).

 
My screed about Armouries and messes was driven by a recent news article committing $250M+ to maintain unfit for purpose buildings because History. (Can't find the article, but this one from a year or so ago is on topic).

Trust us, almost all reservists would love that 250M spent on modern facilities. The government works in funny ways (I don't need to tell you that though)
 
Trust us, almost all reservists would love that 250M spent on modern facilities. The government works in funny ways (I don't need to tell you that though)
Many of my "best" / most frustrating stories start to fall into cabinet confidences.

I will say that I have seen successive Army commanders pushing to ensure that equipment is acquired for one Army, and have pushed for additional funding for additional capacity in both the Reg F and the Res F. Much as I tend to be "glass half empty", there are folks grinding away and working to improve things, with top level support and encouragement.
 
Many of my "best" / most frustrating stories start to fall into cabinet confidences.

I will say that I have seen successive Army commanders pushing to ensure that equipment is acquired for one Army, and have pushed for additional funding for additional capacity in both the Reg F and the Res F. Much as I tend to be "glass half empty", there are folks grinding away and working to improve things, with top level support and encouragement.
Hopefully before everyone here that's still in is retired haha.
 
My screed about Armouries and messes was driven by a recent news article committing $250M+ to maintain unfit for purpose buildings because History. (Can't find the article, but this one from a year or so ago is on topic).

Apropos of nothing whatsoever, the cost of 25 x M777 howitzers in 2008 was $71.5 million.

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Apropos of nothing whatsoever, the cost of 25 x M777 howitzers in 2008 was $71.5 million.

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"Cost" is a four letter word.

Does that include spares and tools? Does that include ammunition? Does it include infra changes required? Does it include training - both conversion of existing gunners and maintainers, and of training plans for the future? Does it include comms requirements?
 
Hopefully before everyone here that's still in is retired haha.
that leaves me out, no way it is happening before then.
"Cost" is a four letter word.

Does that include spares and tools? Does that include ammunition? Does it include infra changes required? Does it include training - both conversion of existing gunners and maintainers, and of training plans for the future? Does it include comms requirements?
This is the CAF, we don't need that stuff. Anyone still have their Militia bullets?
 
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It may just be a Toronto thing.

I’m in eastern Ontario.

One armoury has 4 units and they share. The other one has 2 units and shares (it previously also shared its mess with the ndhq jr ranks for some time)
Until it collapsed the fd arty and nav res armoury shared

The only units in my cbg that I am aware of that have single unit messes are isolated armouries with one unit.
Most of the large armouries that I have seen have separate officers and Sgt/WO messes for each unit and a combined mess for Jr ranks. I've never been part of a combined mess, so I'm not sure how hard it would be to run, considering the fact that there are multiple C-of-C involved. The Mess Committee must have to keep a pretty hard grip on everyone to ensure that everything didn't get stolen off the walls by the other units. But then again, they don't have a separate mess to hang things in. The other issue, which isn't nearly as bad as it used to be, is that some units really don't like each other, which could lead to issues depending on how the Mess Committee is staffed.
 
I get that, same in Winnipeg - by shared I mean multi-unit messes. This individual unit mess thing is mind-blowing to me.
Gotcha, yes i agree, Calgary the Highlanders, KOCR, Engineers, Medics, SVC BN, and MPs all share the mess. Means they have a lot of money in a tiny space, but when hosting events there isn't capacity for parking for every member, actually not even for 1/4 of the members. As a result of poor infrastructure, and travel distance for units who aren't parading in the same building, not a lot of people from the other units drive down. Taxi chits are available to discourage drinking and driving, but outside wednesday nights they dont have a lot going on to draw people in. Occasional grey cup party etc but thats about it.
 
"Cost" is a four letter word.

Does that include spares and tools? Does that include ammunition? Does it include infra changes required? Does it include training - both conversion of existing gunners and maintainers, and of training plans for the future? Does it include comms requirements?
it includes "and associated support" as per the contract.

The answer is no infra changes required. Training is entirely internal as at that point we had already 12 guns in the system and the associated tech, mech, operational and support training was in place. It did not include ammo, trucks (which came under a different project) nor the digital gun management system or comms links to the command post. Those were all separate costs.

But all of that is immaterial. We're not looking at the life-cycle management costs for those armouries either.

The only point here is that for $250 million used to fix an old building which once upgraded will still be unfit for purpose for a modern army, you can buy a lot of relevant operational kit with a fair bit of change left over.

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