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Discussion of Canada's Role in AFG (merged)

Pike said:
Well I am glad I can get a debate started here.

First off, I personally believe that Canada should decide its own foreign policy,not be subject to the American foreign policy.

Afghanistan is NOT our priority, If anyone here can explain to me how fighting in Afghanistan enhances our national security I would love to hear it.


Americans created this "war on terror" which is so undefinable its stupid. Think for yourself

Well, Pike, here is some food for thought....Just because we haven't had anything happen here in Canada, doesn't mean it won't.
God forbid we ever have terrorist attacks on our own soil, but if it ever does maybe it will wake people like you up to the fact that  no one is safe from the kind of threat which faces everyone in the world today.

Better yet, unless you have actually been over there (which many of the people on this site have , including myself) or have had any real life experience, you should refrain from posting things like this on a site where you should obviously know you would not be well recieved.

Save your opinions for the  peace protests where other people like you think Canada is safe and everyone in the world loves us.
 
Sometimes, just sometimes I regret having to show restraint as a mod.

Pike...

I don't even know where to start. I imagine that you came here thinking that you can just open up a canfull of crap such as you did and then overwhelm us with your superior intellect and greater understanding of world events.

Boy oh boy are you ever wrong.

We (all of us) strongly believe in the CF's current mission in A'stan. Stopping terrorism at its source.

But of course its much easier to criticise the CF and the A'stan deployment sitting in the overstuffed chairs down at Starbucks on Osborne Street, complaining to all the other pseudo-hippies about how Canada has become a puppet of the Bush administration.

Go walk the line for a while...Then complain if you want to. But until then as far as I'm concerned you haven't earned the right to stand and call out our soldiers and what they're doing...Especially given that they have suffered losses in the recent days. But, of course, that's what your kind does.

Please go away.

Slim
 
Pike said:
...

First off, I personally believe that Canada should decide its own foreign policy,not be subject to the American foreign policy.

Absolutely correct.  Our foreign policy ought too look something like a stylized compass rose – we have interests all around the globe, North, South, East and West – we need to ‘see’ the whole word, we need to assess how our interests are impacted by events near and far, then we may need to take some actions, maybe even military action.  As is often the case with stylized roses one cardinal point out to be bigger than all the rest, lots bigger: the one which points to America.  For Canada our relations with the USA outweigh all other considerations.

Pike said:

Afghanistan is NOT our priority, If anyone here can explain to me how fighting in Afghanistan enhances our national security I would love to hear it.

If you believe that, if that it a considered opinion and not just sophomoric, Trudeauistic anti-capitalist crap, then there is no point in saying anything else except to send you photos of this really neat bridge I have for sale.

Afghanistan, qua Afghanistan is not important, that’s true.  It is poor and weak.  Afghanistan acquires importance precisely because it is poor, weak and sits in a key geo-political location, a cockpit, as it has for millennia.  Afghanistan, per se, does not matter except that it borders and provides access to a whole hockey sock full of nations which do matter.

Afghanistan – who governs it and how it conducts itself - matters a lot to Turkey, Iran, Pakistan and China.  That means it also matters to a lot India, the Middle East and Central Asia and, less directly, Russia.  Afghanistan is, traditionally, politically weak so it has often been, as was just recently the case, a safe haven for those who have declared war on us* and who have attacked us*, to.  We need to prevent further attacks and, at the same time we need to deny the enemy (not Islam, not any nations, per se, but a real and avowed enemy none the less) bases there (that’s what al qaeda means: “base”).  We need to do that by: helping our friends, allies and other peace-loving, trading nations to:

• Defeat the remnants of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan; and

• Help the Afghan people to strengthen themselves and their society so that they are less likely to be able to be sued against us.

Those are important, even vital national interests for Canada and for Australia, Germany, The Netherlands, New Zealand, the UK and, yes, the USA, too.  Those vital interests are directly tied to our national security and to our long term peace and prosperity and they require  Canadian soldiers to fight in Afghanistan.  Now I understand that the Trudeauites and the Pink Lloyd Axworthy wing of the Liberal Party disagree.  Since, in my opinion, Trudeau was and Axworthy is a second rate intellectual with very weak foreign policy ideas I will happily ignore their views – they are also sophomoric. 

Pike said:
...
Its important to question our elected officials and the decisions they make. I WANT our army to be heavily funded. I WANT us as a country to take up foreign missions. But comon guys lets do what make sense. Lets go into Sudan, thats where our priorities should lie, not fighting in afghanistan trying to makeup to the AMericans for saying No on Iraq.

No real disagreements; you are right, I think, that the reason Jean Chrétien sent troops to Afghanistan was base and cowardly – but he ended up doing the right thing for the wrong reason.  It is still the right thing.

Pike said:
...
Americans created this "war on terror" which is so undefinable its stupid. Think for yourself

Ho-hum, see above re: ”sophomoric, Trudeauistic anti-capitalist crap”.
----------
* Us being the secular, liberal-democratic West.

Edit: typo
 
Gents, (and ladies)

Don't feed the trolls.

People like Pike aren't looking for genuine debates, but merely being shit disturbers.

More you respond to him, more his amusement grows.
 
HighlandFusilier said:
Gents, (and ladies)

Don't feed the trolls.

People like Pike aren't looking for genuine debates, but merely being crap disturbers.

More you respond to him, more his amusement grows.

In this one case I disagree.

People like this need to be responded to. Forcefully, respectably and properly with good facts...But they need to hear that they CANNOT spew garbage like that and get off doing it. Not here and not to our soldiers.

We must be able to show that not only are we better than the yahoos who would take away our right and ability to defend ourselves but that we know and believe in what we are doing!

I am not speaking a s a mod but as my own opinion, however I hope that others here will agree.
 
I'm always amused when the "we're only there to kiss up to the U.S." line is used.  Various of our NATO allies have also determined that Afghanistan actually is a worthy undertaking and so it seems that we've all been suckered  ::)  

In the event we are "only there to fight the Taliban and Al Qaeda" that seems a pretty worthy goal in itself; freeing Afghan women from the savagery of the Taliban seems a pretty nice bonus.
 
Well Mame

It is in our National interests to be in Afghanistan.  It is stopping Terrorism in its' tracks before it has a chance to spread like a plaque around the world and lands up on your and my doorsteps.  It is a form of 'preventative medicine' done with the conscent of all nations involved.

As for Sudan.  It will soon be a Hell hole and may even be a worse situation than Afghanistan.  The Sudanese Government does not yet want foreigners in their country, let alone interfering in their 'war' at this time.  I guess you may have missed that fact in your quick comment on that problem.  We don't have permission or request for assistance from the Sudanese, but we do from the Afghani's.
 
Well thanks everyone for enlighening me. Seriously I have learned a lot from listening to all of you. And no Im not just sitting here laughing.

I agree with some of your points, I think you said it best Edward Campbell why we need to be in Afghanistan.

What if we turn around the argument though? And what if we say it is in our interest and our allies to get rid of dictatorships in Africa, to liberate those people, foster trade etc etc. Its the same argument. Poverty breeds inequality and restrained choice, which is what is happening in Afghanistan and Sudan.

I guess my overall point is this. We can justify being in Afghanistan as much as we want. But it is not our foreign policy. We were swayed into doing it to maintain good relations with the USA. Thats it. So I just have a problem with people defending this like its our own. Its not. We will always be dictated to. And as long as individuals within our army accept that it will never change. We will never truly have our own foreign policy.
 
Pike, I shed a tear for you. You naive, selfish, crap disturber.
        You have entered the forbidden forest, you have caused both great and small; young and old to come alive. That is a bitter sweet thing you have done. You will be taught with experience and facts, and not only that you will be scolded with hot fire, such as that which flows from the core of the earth.
      You will learn.
 
I'm still at awe that you guys are still talking with him/her.  I read the first post and that was it.....next....
 
Pike said:
We will always be dictated to. And as long as individuals within our army accept that it will never change. We will never truly have our own foreign policy.

Are you then suggesting that the CF, or perhaps merely "individuals within our army," not accept the government's policy? 
 
Pike said:
........ We will always be dictated to. And as long as individuals within our army accept that it will never change. We will never truly have our own foreign policy.

Unfortunately, you have made a fatal error in that statement.  In the words of Kipling, "It is not our reason to wonder why, it is our duty to do or die."  A little melodramatic, I know, but what you are espousing in your statement amounts to "Muntiny".  That is a serious crime.  One for which none of us wishes to commit.  It is the job of politicians and Statesmen to make these types of decisions.  It is up to the soldiers to clean up their mess.   ;D
 
Lost_Warrior said:
I'm still at awe that you guys are still talking with him/her.   I read the first post and that was it.....next....
Ah! You are just as enamoured with her silly questions as the rest of us jokers.  ;D
 
"Gents, (and ladies)Don't feed the trolls.People like Pike aren't looking for genuine debates, but merely being crap disturbers.More you respond to him, more his amusement grows."

- I would say the amusement is mutual!  :D

"Poverty breeds inequality and restrained choice, which is what is happening in Afghanistan and Sudan."

- Other way a 'round, Ma'am: inequality and restrained choice breed poverty.  Cuba, etc, is not Communist because it is poor, it is poor because it is Communist.

(Brilliant of me, what?).

:-*

Tom


 
Googled Pikes web site.

Google results.
Break the Silence.....This site provides information on sexual assault, rape, healing, myths and facts, effects of sexual violence, statistics, and more.
breakthesilence.ca/

Funny thing though. Found this little comment, wondered if Ruxted Group was interested.

http://breakthesilence.ca/about.htm

"Want to write for Break The Silence?

Opinion articles are welcome on all topics political, scientific and cultural. Keep articles maximum to 1000 words. Submit for reviewing to articles@breakthesilence.ca

This is a great opportunity to get your work recognized by a wide variety of readers. All submissions are voluntary and will not be reimbursed financially. "

 
I am in awe Tom.....

Time to button up methinks.....

violent-smiley-090.gif
 
TCBF said:
(Brilliant of me, what?).

You'd think more philosphers would come out of Wainwright.......or articles on suicide and depression  ;)
 
Pike, you have no idea about the relationship between the govt and the Military in a democracy like Canada. The Armed Forces obey orders from the govt; they do not dictate anything to the govt, or refuse to carry out an order.
Most people in uniform in the CF are outstanding Canadians, and we are losing some of them at this time as they are preventing a failed state's return to a dictatorship that supports and trains international terrorists, and funds terrorist organizations through the heroin market.
It's a simple concept: we fight them over there instead of over here.

"You live under the blanket of freedom in which I provide, and then question the way in which I provide it. I would rather you say thank you, and went on your way.  Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post".
Jack Nicholson, A few good men
 
So what would you have us do Pike? Pick some Country at random and mount a full scale invasion of our own without any support or approval from our allies?  And to what end? Just to say we went somewhere on our own accord by our own terms to show that we have a foreign policy?  There are 28 Nations who seem to believe that Afghanistan is worth the manpower and resources to give that Country assistance.  On my Roto, there were numerous troops there with me that were there on the first roto in there, and they said the difference there from just a year prior that they were last there, was immense.  We are achieving success over there.  You also have no idea obviously on our Military resources.  We simply don't have the numbers to pick and choose places we want to go "make a difference" and go off and do it.  We have one Division (An understrength Division at that) which more or less means all we can really do is pick our commitments carefully, and go with the worthy cause. Afghanistan has appealed to the Western powers for assistance, we were invited in. (Afghanistan has proved time and again if they don't want you in their Country, trust me, you won't be there)

Regards
 
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