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Discussion of Canada's Role in AFG (merged)

Brutal. 
If you go to her website, it is all but dead and stagnant.  There are only about four active posters Pike, some clown that is an advocate for the Libertarian party (serious pack of kooks) and a white supremist, and, sadly, the ones I threw up (I feel so dirty).  Most of the posts are over a month old and there are only about 50 members signed up. 
Blatant attempts to get the webcounter stats up in order to push for advertising space.  Don't get sucked in.
 
the editorial says it all.  I am wondering if there will ever be a time when the majority of Canadians will realize that it can be a very nasty world out there and that you cannot negotiate a solution to every problem.  Sometimes you have to "carry a big stick" for the overall good.  Our troops do their job superbly and we mourn every loss however they are there doing the job they are trained to do and are making our world a little safer in doing so.  Well done guys and gals!!!  Ubique
 
Mike Bobbitt said:
I'm no historian, but wasn't Muhammad Daoud backed by the Soviets when he overthrew the king in 1973? Agreed, that's not aggression, more like subversion.

Hey Mr. Bobbitt,

As per our discussion, I am not entirely certain of this. I can't say I've heard it mentioned before, and the few survey books I have lying around don't mention it either. I took the time to look at a few journal articles, notably The Fall of the Afghan Monarchy in 1973, by Hasan Kakar, and Soviet Military Intervention in Afghanistan: Roots & Causes, by Minton F. Goldman, and these don't mention it either. Once again though, these sources and my own experience are far from definitive, especially given that these articles are pre-breakup.

In terms of a date we can use ('78 or '79), Goldman goes so far as to assert "There is no evidence that the Soviets had instigated or engineered Daoud's removal"... putting our intervention date all the way back to 1979, but that as well is depending on your perspective, as the USSR created and funded the Afghan communist party (PDPA) that eventually split up, with the Khalq faction overthrowing Daoud.

*edited for clarity*
 
While the historical background may be interesting from an intellectual challenge point of view, there is neither a USSR to demand repatriations from nor a functioning Afghan Royal Family ready, willing and able to take the reigns of a monarchy (constitutional or otherwise). I'm afraid I'm not currently avaiable either.

We should look at the past to see the hows and whys, but if there is no good solution that can be rooted in the past, then we need to let it go and look ahead at what we need to do now, tomorrow, in 2015 and the big homecoming parade in 2025 to achieve our goals.
 
a_majoor,

My post was just a reply to Michael Dorosh's and Mr. Bobbitt's discussion regarding the date of the Soviet aggression in Afghanistan mentioned in the article.
 
Hey, I am a libertarian! (well, not a card carrying one, but still)

The "problem" with people like Pike is they are only able to digest pre chewed, preformatted "slogans". This is a result of many factors, poor education, laziness, a rigid personality unable to deal with conflicting data, peer pressure, lack of life experience and so on. Some of these factors are way beyond our control, the jiffy pop hat crowd can't be reasoned with. (I once pointed out the "Afghanistan pipeline" so popular among the "Blood for Oil" crowd would be pumping uphill over the Himalaya mountains, with some peaks over 9 km above sea level. There was a brief silence, followed by another reason the war was about oil. Oh well....)

We can make our arguments, lay out the case step by step, debate amongst ourselves to reach a consensus (i.e. this is a "Clash of Civilizations or the "Core" seeking to integrate the "Gap"), educate the poorly educated, help those lacking in exoerience broaden their frames of reference and maybe inspiring some to climb out of their intellectual ruts  and find out things on their own.

OK, this is a pipe dream, but if we don't make the effort, who will? If people decide that watching "American Idol" takes precidence over their lives and long term security, there will be a terrible price to pay in the end.
 
The Globe and Mail’s resident left wing-nut weighs in today,  His column is reproduced here under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060310.wxcosalutin10/BNStory/National/home
Trust the public on Afghanistan

RICK SALUTIN

From Friday's Globe and Mail

I find it irritating to be told that support for Canada's military role in Afghanistan has fallen due to casualties there. The recent Globe-CTV poll showing a decline was done a full month after the impact of diplomat Glyn Berry's death by suicide bomb, and well before the grim days in March when a rollover was followed by another suicide attack and then the axe assault on Capt. Trevor Greene. So Prime Minister Stephen Harper was wrong to say Canadians shouldn't "cut and run," implying a fearful recoil was behind the opposition. And it is misleading for journalists like Marcus Gee to reverse the order and say, "With casualties on the rise, polls show that support for the Afghanistan mission is falling."

It's also insulting. Why can't political and media elites assume public opinion has its own good reasons. Why did pollster Allan Gregg say he was "very, very surprised at the degree of opposition to something that is not well known by the population"? Can't non-experts have their own forms of analysis? Don't you think it's possible for ordinary people who follow the news to imagine how complex it must be for Afghan peasants to see these small mountains of military equipment with white, clean-shaven faces arrive in their village? At least the other guys, whatever their demands, look like them and speak their language. Maybe they've heard about wedding parties that were bombed by mistake. Likely they know the Americans came before, in the 1980s, leaving them once the Soviets were gone to descend into warlordism from which the Taliban promised to deliver them. Now the U.S. is back, along with allies like the Canadians -- but for how long, and what are their real motives? What about the violence of their own security forces, shown recently on TV, or the belligerent house searches we occasionally see footage of? A Canadian officer said his notions about Pashtun hospitality were confounded by that axe attack -- as if he thought the locals should have taken the same anthro course he did. Maybe Canadians who responded to the poll hold a subtler view of the world.

Maybe they also think supporting democracy there doesn't mean a European-style parliament in Kabul, but rather a sense of local control in the countryside. Maybe they feel history shows Afghanistan is a dreadful place for invaders, no matter what fine intentions they proclaim; and a tedious, low-profile process of civilian aid is the most hopeful route to progress.

Those elites can be awfully shortsighted historically. They tend to have ulterior motives and careers to worry about. Ordinary people can often take a more detached view. It makes them wary of bad processes repeating.

Ordinary people may also be suspicious of the idiotically named "war on terror," of which the Afghanistan deployment is a part. They were right to be suspicious of invading Iraq, which has probably made future terror attacks like 9/11 more, not less, likely. It has even made Iraqis less secure than they were under Saddam, according to a former UN human rights official there.

The case of Afghanistan is different, but exists in the same context.

We've seen these elite-popular disagreements before. Think of Meech Lake or the Charlottetown accord. This one differs because it concerns foreign policy. It also differs because the Canadian military has weighed in. Under General Rick Hillier they are pushing hard for the current policy. Who knows what effect his comments about "scumbags" will have on his own troops and the way people there view them? Our commander in Kandahar has disputed the poll results, based on evidence like his e-mail. Another officer writes scholarly polemics using dubious concepts like failed states. My question is: Don't these soldiers have enough to worry about carrying out their mission? Is it a good idea to load onto them in addition, its ongoing justification?

The Prime Minister opposes a parliamentary debate because it could "weaken our troops" and put them "in more danger." Well, if our political leaders won't cast a sharp, questioning eye on all this, then who will look out for the welfare of our troops and make sure it doesn't all go terribly wrong?

First, let me say that I agree with his first and (most of) his second paragraphs.  It is entirely likely that the media – which Salutin and Hillary Clinton seem to regard as a vast, right wing conspiracy aimed at toppling Saint Tommy Douglas’ New Jerusalem – manipulates the news or, more likely in my view, just gets it muddled.  Ordinary Canadians, like most of us here on Army.ca, do watch, read, listen, think and discuss (I hope most (many? just some?) of us think before we discuss) and then we ordinary Canadians make up our own minds.  Salutin is right there; but he assumes – wholly, completely and predictably incorrectly – that we ordinary Canadians will, after thinking, end up opposing our Afghanistan mission.  Some will; many will not.  We will talk amongst ourselves – maybe those who believe we are doing the right thing for (at last) the right reasons will convince some of the weak-kneed nay-sayers, too.

(Parenthetically: I also agree with part of this: ”… [we] may also be suspicious of the idiotically named "war on terror," …”  The key words are idiotically named.  We are not, I hope, at war with terror.  We have used terror as a weapon, and may – likely will – do so again; we have decorated terrorists.  What do people think Churchill meant when he said “Set Europe ablaze!” was he planning a birthday party?  He wanted his forces, mostly SOE – in which many Canadian military personnel served, out of uniform – to terrorize the Germans and the collaborators.  We are at war with some groups (I call them movements) which use terror as a tactic.  A war on terror is a dumb idea; it’s like Pink Lloyd Axworthy’s wars on landmines or small arms: dumb ideas propagated by dumb people. <end rant>)

I object to Salutin’s cheap cracks at senior CF officers – serving and retired – including the one who ”… writes scholarly polemics using dubious concepts like failed states.”

Is Salutin afraid of the competition?

Is he amazed that generals, unlike some journalists, can walk and chew gum?


Edit: typo & to insert hyperlink as required by Army.ca's regulations
 
Having read that Globe article, I am upset at the idiot.  I will call him an idiot, with a small "i", as he obviously is.  He has called down a great number of his profession to the lowest:
......... And it is misleading for journalists like Marcus Gee to reverse the order and say, "With casualties on the rise, polls show that support for the Afghanistan mission is falling."

It's also insulting. ......
How not to win over Friends and Colleagues.

I found his words insulting, but I guess that is what he is going for.  He must be looking for a Free Lance job at the National Enquirer.  One would expect a 'Journalist' to try and print some facts and not innuendo.
 
First I hope everyone I know there comes back safe.


However this seems low.

3 months ago these statements were not even on the radar now we have a new PM and they are all over the place and he hasn't been on the job 2 months?

I don't think had Martin won the election that it would have been a factor.

Our comitment shouldn't be based on political pursuasion of the PM. 

And far fewer Canadians die in Afghanistan than Winnipeg should we withdraw from murderpeg too?



 
Having served in Viet Nam and presently having a son over in Afghanistan, I would like to point out some items.

To the Canadians who have never been in any of the third world countries...you don't have a clue. You live a privilaged life with no strife, other than what is self inflicted, you have a standard of living that ensures you food, safety and shelter (IF you desire, or NOT if you desire) that the rest of the world can only envy.

When I joined the USMC as a Canadian, I fought with some terrific and proud men who not only were doing their duty, but preformed in a selfless manner anyone would be proud of.
They (the media) shouldn't diss the military fighting man because of what their political masters say and do..they don't deserve it.

As for my son serving in Afghanistan (previously Bosnia/Kabul/others) ... if not the HAVES helping the HAVE NOT'S, then WHO??? Yeah, some of the politics stink, but not everything can be as clean and sanitary as you would like. Wouldn't it be nice to see that the only political issue in a country like Afghanistan be over whether one politician said something nasty about another politician.

They sure would, and that's the eventual end result we would like to see...people arguing and voting for changes that effect their lives....hmmm..kinda like Canada?? (as I see so often:  end rant) :cdn:
 
The really unfortunate thing is Jack Layton really cares little for the men and women of the CF, and apparently even less for the people of Afghanistan. His silence on the matter between 2002 and now is proof enough.

Like the "ethics comissioner" suddenly coming out to investigate Prime Minister Harper (after several years of collecting a paycheque under Mr Creitien and Martin and sitting quietly in his office), this is simply low and sleazy partisan politics in action.

Take the time from your busy schedules and let Mr Layton know.
 
If you are speaking to someone about Afghanistan and they say they are against having our troops there, here is some points you can argue with:

Tell them if they are against having troops in Afghanistan then they are against defending womens rights. Tell them they are against free speech, tell them they are against freedom of choice.

If it is a woman you are speaking to, ask her:
Do you think women should be educated? Do you have a job, do you have any female children, do you like being able to go out of the house without a male escort?

I am sure she will say yes to one of those questions, then tell her she is in favour us having soldiers there because if we take our troops out, and the Taliban return to power, they will once again put in laws that:

Women must be completely covered....or they will be beaten,
Women must be escorted by a male member of the family everywhere outside the home, and not talk to another male.....or the escort will be beheaded,
Girls are not allowed to be educated...or they be beaten and then would be sold off at public auction,
Women are not allowed to have a job....or they will be beheaded,
If the all the males of a family die, then the women starve to death.

To speak out would cause you to be beaten, to listen to music would get you beaten, to help another mans wife would get you beheaded.

Then after you explain all this, ask them again are they in favour of our troops helping to create a western style moderate Islamic government in Afghanistan. I am sure at this point they might be.
 
From the Toronto Star:

Doubts at home hit troops
Soldiers stand by Afghan mission
PM's tough talk `means a lot to us'
Mar. 14, 2006. 11:13 AM
SUSAN DELACOURT
OTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF


KANDAHAR, Afghanistan—They are thousands of kilometres away from home, but not that far from the politics of their mission.

In the tent barracks of the Kandahar military base, on the rocky, dusty roads where they stroll with high-powered weapons strapped across their shoulder, Canada's troops in Afghanistan know Prime Minister Stephen Harper's visit this week had as much to do with domestic politics as international security.

There were no great cheers or rounds of applause for Harper as he stood before the troops on the base yesterday to tell them Canada was not about to "cut and run" from its Afghanistan commitment, as some critics might prefer.

But many did flock to Harper afterward for pictures or a private word.

Cpl. John Fingal, originally from Oshawa, was one of them. He was happy to see the Prime Minister on the base, precisely because of what he's been hearing from Canada.

"It means a lot, that his government actually supports us. Some statistics show that a lot of Canadians don't support us, but as long as we have the actual government itself it really means a lot to us," Fingal said.

Asked what he'd tell Canadian critics and doubters, Fingal talked about a friend who lived in New York when the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist strikes hit that city — about the fact that violence and dissent thousands of kilometres away can have a way of creeping up on Canadians.

"I want to tell them that they should realize that the threat isn't just to Americans or to Afghans. ... You can't hide from this threat," he said.

Inside the surprisingly well-appointed quarters known as B.A.T. (the "big-ass tent), in the minutes before Harper was due to arrive for a tour, Canadian soldiers were tidying military bunks laid out with Afghan carpets and warm, homey touches.

Back in the far reaches of the tent, a boardroom of sorts was outfitted with military plans and administrative flotsam and jetsam. On the big square table were carefully chosen computer printouts of news stories over the past month about the political debate over the Canadian mission abroad. The sheaves of paper looked well-thumbed.

Cpl. Pascal Johanny acknowledged some frustration with suggestions Canada needs another parliamentary debate on the commitment to Afghanistan. All three opposition parties are demanding a formal discussion in the House of Commons on the military mission, an idea Harper rejects.

"I believe the debate should be over with," Johanny said. "Now the Conservatives are in power, the decision has been made to send the troops out here and I think they should stop trying to debate stuff like that and just support the troops."

Johanny believed Harper's visit could do nothing but help in that effort.

"Since it comes from the highest part of the government, maybe more people who obviously voted him in will start listening," he said.

Cpl. Ron Barr said the troops pay a lot of attention to how they're perceived in Canada and positive reaction, mere support is gratifying.

But like many others, Barr talks about how this mission is motivated by a desire to help the Afghan people, not to curry favour or attention back home.

What would he say to those who wanted to question the mission?

"I think they should send all the people (who doubt us) on a tour of the place," Barr said.

"Then they could see firsthand, they could see with their own eyes, what we're doing for the people, and how the small factions are trying to disrupt everybody's day-to-day life. ... I think we spend too much money on debates, too much money on Crown investigations into this and that, and I just think we shouldn't have another debate."
 
http://www.breakthesilence.ca/

I realize Pike is no longer with us, so I decided to check out the above Pikesite, and lo and behold, there may be some views held there by BOTH sides of the political spectrum.  Now, Pike herself may have fallen victim to her inability to multitask WAVT maintaining thread presence, but, had she done more than a few 'drive-bys' here, she may have in fact stuck around and learned something.

A lost opportunity for her.  Maybe even for us, but certainly for her.

Tom
 
>Tell them if they are against having troops in Afghanistan then they are against...

That's not true.  At most you can claim they are willing to pass up an opportunity to promote something (eg. human rights).  There are plenty of places around the world we could work to improve things, but we don't (and indeed, we can't).  That doesn't mean we are against whatever we have passed up the opportunity to improve.
 
Brad Sallows said:
>Tell them if they are against having troops in Afghanistan then they are against...

That's not true.  At most you can claim they are willing to pass up an opportunity to promote something (eg. human rights).  There are plenty of places around the world we could work to improve things, but we don't (and indeed, we can't).  That doesn't mean we are against whatever we have passed up the opportunity to improve.

I'm sure in time the nations that care will get around to the nations that need.  As it stands, how many irons in the fire can we maintain with the current budget and staffing levels.  Lets get A'stan sewn up first, then start to look for a new worthy recipient.  I would love to see some other wealthy European country, say France or Germany, step up and send a significant troop deployment to some backward crap hole like Algeria,  Sudan or Congo.  I don't see why it has to be Castle North America and the other Commonwealth countries doing it all.  (of course, I am a product of our media on this, so there may be a great many other countries working as such, we just don't get to hear about them. 
The argument against A'stan sounds the same as the one against the Americans in Iraq:  Didn't ask for help, can't ever hope to get the job done, imposing our values, not worth the risk (I choose to ignore the "blood for oil crap).  I hope they have so little access to media over there they don't see what a self absorbed nation of back turners we can be.  Leaving A'stan will only confirm that if they have any thoughts as such. 
I was approached by a woman looking for directions a couple of days ago.  Her English was halting, but we were able to talk.  She was a Christian that had left Iraq during GW 1, and had been in Canada since.  I asked her what she thought about the American involvement in her home, and she told me "America is from God.  I pray for George Bush every night.  They save the Iraq people and are friends to the Iraq people".  She went on to indicate that she knew that the killing and destruction was being stirred up by agitators from outside of Iraq.  What I would have given to be able to throw her on camera to say "here, this is why we go to foreign nations and put our asses on the line".  Chances are, it would have never made it to air. 

If our cultures are so dispatirate and we are foisting so much "ethnocentricity" on them, why do we end up with so many as refugee's from those countries we have helped?  Maybe our deeds make more of a statement than our words, and for the little guy on the street, that is what mattered.  All they see is a guy with a red and white flag on his uniform, putting his life on the line for a place he had never been to and will likely never go back, and figures "this country the soldier is from.  It must be a really great place to live and raise a family".  Throwing around money and sanctions will never generate that kind of good will.  An increased budget will never replace word of mouth and good example as being a way to convince a nation that they have a friend they can count on. 

Pulling out of Afghanistan now would at best be short sighted, and at worst a cruel abandonment of a people who need us.
 
zipperhead_cop said:
Pulling out of Afghanistan now would at best be short sighted, and at worst a cruel abandonment of a people who need us.

+1

Best line yet!
 
I was questionning myself why we are in Afghanistan... but to do son, i have to answer first by why we were in Bosnia, or haiti, or any other contries before. Because the canadian army is one of the best army in the world. Ok, we are not as equipped as other armies (ie americans) But we are canadians. I'm with every soldier over ther and i hope they will return save. I'm pround of you guys!
 
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