Confederate Flag Displaying

[Gunner]

Redeye said

, but one Soviet commentator (I wish I could find the exact quote) once remarked that the Soviets feared the Canadians (in particular the CAR) for their unpredictable nature and unwillingness to read, let alone follow doctrine.

. This quote has been variously attributed to German Commanders in WWII and to Soviet Commanders during the Cold War. It is usually contained in various "military blunders" and "military commonsense" lists of combat. I very much doubt that a Soviet commentator would say anything such as this. As far as the Soviets fearing the CAR...absolute nonsense.

The best arguement I have heard for the use of the Confederate flag, particularly when it is still flown by some southern US states, is that it portrays heritage, not hatred. Something only becomes offensive when it is used as a means to illustrate motives. For example, the swastika by Hitler and the Nazi‘s, and the confederate flag by various white supremeist groups, etc.

The banning of the Confederate flag on CF establishments was simply a means to combat a negative public image that we contained a hotbed of racism, particularly in the CAR. A couple of airborne guys drunk with a video camera and look what the result was.

 

[mattoigta]

"If it was truly a flag of southern pride you would see it used by the black population in the US... and that just isn‘t happening. "

I was talking to a black man from Arkansas, and I asked him about that and he told me he flies it on his house, as do a lot of other blacks in the south.

 

[Recce41]

Quote "Its the flag of White Supremacist. Sure there maybe some pride in being from the south. But connection with the white pride racisms, cannot be over looked. And there for should not be used on any CF bases. Anyone who is flying this flag, is also flying a "whites only" flag no matter much they try to say its not so. And this has nothing to do with being PC, history has made this flag, a flag of racism, the KKK and of White Supremacists. If it was truly a flag of southern pride you would see it used by the black population in the US... and that just isn‘t happening".

Radiohead
I personally think your right out of it on this. I have been to the south and as Pte S stated colour people do fly them. It like saying I have my hair very short, Im a skin head. wrong!
I have a Orangemen‘s flag, does this mean I‘m a anti-RC.wrong again.

Gunnar: I heard that also. But tell an American that. They still think they saved us from the Commies. I was a member of the Quarter Guard for the Soviet VCDS. He had said he rather fight the Americans, than the Canadians. We don‘t follow the rules. Ptes will lead, and our officers, think at a low level.

 

[Gunner]

officers, think at a low level.

Recce41, not sure if you think this is a good thing or a bad thing!

Canadians in war have traditionally been very rigid in our operations. German military commanders were very complimentary on the fighting quality of Candians but that we were too methodical in our methods. We simply weren‘t able to seize the initiative. Not sure if that has changed although I agree with Recce41 that at the tactical level, we produce some outstanding soldiers.

If and when we do go to an actual "war" I think we will have to relearn alot of the past lessons the hard way. It has been too long since we have had any practical experience. In the 80s, the thought of our Infantry Fighting Vehicle (M113) blocking a Soviet offensive, armed with an open top .50 remains absolutely frightening to me. We were very lucky we were never called into play.

 

[ArmyAl]

Loving it S_Baker
keep it coming

 

[nbk]

Now to throw a wrench into the mower.

The Northern Alliance (Canadian brance of an american neo nazi group) uses the old red ensign as their white power flag.

You can find pictures of them waving it at their site, which can be located by typing Northern Alliance into google. I will not link that site because it is quite disgusting.

I realize the red ensign is not perticularly associated with "white pride", but nonetheless, it is used by this small silly group of people, so should it be looked down upon?

 

[humint]

My advice is this:

Don‘t display the Confederate flag in your shacks unless you want a world of hurt.

It is not what YOU perceive it as (i.e. cool factor Southern Battle Flag and a historical item), but what your Plt Cmdr and his/her OC perceives it as (i.e. a racist symbol), as well as the CO.

And, if someone complains about it being a symbol of harassment or intimidation, than you will get the full brunt of SHARP all over your ***.

Although in many mess halls you will find Nazi war items, they are war booty, and their presence can be justified.

I am sure you will have a hard time justifying the presence of the Confederate Flag in your shacks.

So, that said, it is best left at home.

Remember, your number one interest is keeping yourself in the CF.

 

[JSA]

I have a rebel flag tattoo‘d on my arm, does that make me a racist? I served in 2Cdo, does that make me a racist? I was born in the US, does that make me a racist? Just because some officer doesn‘t like the flag your saying that I should never show it? I had it on my bike for years while instructing at the battleschool and serving in the cdo‘s, no one ever said a word. My advise to you is if you have a reason to display the flag do so (and be prepared to take the heat). And if you don‘t, why would you want to fly it? js

 

[Armymedic]

two points/questions
1. Doesn‘t the Alabama state flage bear resemblance the the Confederate flag?

2. Can anyone find in the QR&O‘s or CFAO‘s(DOADs, whatever) where it staes that you may not hang up a state flag in your residence?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The Alabama state flag incorporates the Confederate flag. Bear in mind that what we call the Confederate flag (Blue St. Andrews Cross on red field with 13 white stars on the cross) was never the official flag of the Confederate States of America. It was never a state flag, either. It was carried as a national colour by units in the field to be used as a rallying point during battle. It was never an official emblem of anything, and as such, no one can claim that they are flying it for "a reason", because it was never meant to represent anything specific.

On the other hand, its current association with both neo-nazi groups and racist groups (and its past association with an army that was fighting to keep an entire race in bondage), pretty much rules out its presence in polite company. Any Canadian who flies the flag, has it on their pickup truck, or tattooed on their skin can probably be best described in uncomplimentary terms. It‘s certainly not the insignia of MENSA or the Secret Society of Rocket Scientists.

 

[JSA]

I won‘t respond in kind. js

 

[Jeff Boomhouwer]

What about the Dukes of Hazzard. The General Lee was\is one bad*ss car,it had the Confederate flag proudly painted on the roof. I don‘t beleve the good ole boys or the producers of the show were racist. Just southern boys. NAH NAH NAW NAW,NAW NAW NAH NAH NAH NAH NAW NAAAAH YEEEEEHAAAAA!!!!!!

 

[Garry]

Preconceived notions are a terrible thing, maybe second only to allowing someone else to think for you....or is it the same thing?

The reasons behind the Civil War (or is it the War of Northern Agression?) are there for anyone to find- maybe you should check them out for yourselves.

Any display of most anything now is offensive to someone....heck, being outraged at things that are none of your business offends me!

One of the joys of being Canadian is that we are, for the most part, kinda naive... we truly do believe that most folks are good, and most of us have little or no prejuidice- other than the preconceived notions that have been displayed in many posts above.

Loosen up a little, folks- must be tough wiping your rears with q-tips.

It‘s a flag- more to the point, what a guy does his own business.

Cheers-Garry

 

[Recce41]

Baker
Don‘t take it personally. I believe, it is because the Soviet Army direct leadership stops at Regt level. In our Army we have had MCpls as troop leaders. I was Crew commanding as a Tpr with an yr in. And a Ptl commander as a Cpl. I have been on SUEs and have never seen a pte CC in the US army. I see a full crew of Sgts. When I was in Bosnia, some of the Eastern Europe officers. I met thought we were all Elite Soldiers, due we all had scopes on out weapons. Only Soviet elite troops have scopes.
Just as we in the west have fails ideas of the east.
As for the US saving us from the Commies, I have been on US web sites. And make a statement As we as NATO defeated Commies. And get blasted from all sides.
The NDP is not a Commie party. It is a socialist. A party that believes in the people not in businesses. If it were a true Communist Party, we would have a very large Army with them. They want to get rid of the Military.
So just slow down, and not a D***.

 

[Gunner]

The Northern Alliance (Canadian brance of an american neo nazi group) uses the old red ensign as their white power flag.

You can find pictures of them waving it at their site, which can be located by typing Northern Alliance into google. I will not link that site because it is quite disgusting.

NBK, the site you didn‘t want to link to is here: Northern Alliance

Never be afraid to confront different opinions. I don‘t subscribe to the crap they have on their website but I will support their right to express their views. We are in danger in Canada of losing our ability to openly discuss (or even disagree) with many key issues without being branded racist, sexist, etc, etc. Never subscribe to the moral censorship so often displayed by the left wing elements within our society.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Garry:
[qb] Preconceived notions are a terrible thing, maybe second only to allowing someone else to think for you....or is it the same thing?

The reasons behind the Civil War (or is it the War of Northern Agression?) are there for anyone to find- maybe you should check them out for yourselves.

Any display of most anything now is offensive to someone....heck, being outraged at things that are none of your business offends me!

One of the joys of being Canadian is that we are, for the most part, kinda naive... we truly do believe that most folks are good, and most of us have little or no prejuidice- other than the preconceived notions that have been displayed in many posts above.

Loosen up a little, folks- must be tough wiping your rears with q-tips.

It‘s a flag- more to the point, what a guy does his own business.

Cheers-Garry [/qb]

Ignorance is bliss Garry. You must be ecstatic.

Supposing for the sake of argument that your grandmother had been tortured in a German concentration camp in WW II, and I decided to fly the Third Reich battle flag on a flagpole in front or my house - across the street from hers - would that still be nobody‘s business but mine?

Thousands of lives were lost in the US Civil War to ensure that the institution of slavery would perish from the North American continent, and that all men would live in freedom, equal under God. That ideal has never been fully realized, but real men died in order to bring us closer to its ultimate fruition.

One can trivialize the racism of the Confederacy all they want by injecting bad 1970s TV shows into the conversation, but that‘s just a sign of intellectual bankruptcy. On the other hand, if anyone can think of a legitimate reason why they should be permitted to display either a Third Reich flag or a Confederate flag outside of the realm of drama (motion picture, television or live theatre productions), historical preservation (museum displays, battle-re-enactments, living history events), please do so now.

I do not agree with censorship and believe in freedom of speech; that freedom comes with obvious limits as recognized by a moral society (child pornography, national security, slander, fraud and other offences to decency, justice or fairness). We are, unfortunately, left to individual judgement on what may or may not be offensive. I should think in some cases that judgement call is not as difficult to make as some persons - Garry included, apparently - would like to pretend.

If you tell me not to wear the colour blue because it offends your sense of Feng Shui, I will probably ignore you. If, on the other hand, you tell me not to fly a flag symbolizing a regime guilty of promoting (and acting upon) race hatred or genocide, I like to think I would be inclined to respect your point of view.

 

[combat_medic]

Despite the freedoms of speech and expression in Canada, there are still certain limitations to what can be done in uniform. One kid in Shilo was wearing a t-shirt on his day off that said "Drunk chicks think I‘m hot." He was pulled aside by one of the Senior NCOs on base, made to remove, and was given a reprimand for it. Also, if you have certain racial or gang-related tattoos, you will not be allowed into the army in the first place.

Having a tattoo, sticker, or other insignia of a confederate flag displayed in uniform or on military property can be deemed offensive. The local harassment officer can make you take it off, or take it down. Even having such a symbol in a PMQ or shack is still within the jurisdiction of the QR&Os.

Whether or not you have your own reasons for having it displayed, racially-oriented or not, if someone finds it offensive and complains about it, then you can be made to remove it. Fair or not, that‘s just the way it is.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Some people are terrified of the whole race issue. I got in a lot of hot water because i got what someone thought was a racist tatoo. It was a maple leaf inside a greatful dead head on my back shouler blade. They somehow believed it was racist and wanted me reprimanded. Thankfully someone above them told them to quit being a moron and the issue was dropped.

Soon as someone mentions racisim and your ont he accusing end you better run to church and donate to the orphanage.

 

[East Side Soprano]

Very true Ghost, it‘s unfortunate that race has become such a major issue and many people feel intimidated because they fear that their actions may be perceived as racist.

 

[humint]

Sure, you can express your views all you want due to Charter of Rights and Freedoms, however there are limits. Basically, you can express your views just as long as you don‘t break any laws or contravene the Canadian Human Rights Code (i.e. promote genocide, hate, or any criminal offence).

In our case, we also have to tip-toe through SHARP policies.

I‘m not saying that you can‘t put up the flag. But if you do, just be ready to defend your views. If they are not sound, be prepared to pay the price.

This is not a philosophical debate on whether or not hanging the flag is morally right or wrong, but rather a realpolitik debate on what will happen if you hang it up in the shacks -- and that is, someone is bound to complain.