Confederate Flag Displaying

[nbk]

Originally posted by combat_medic:
[qb] Also, if you have certain racial or gang-related tattoos, you will not be allowed into the army in the first place.

(...)

Whether or not you have your own reasons for having it displayed, racially-oriented or not, if someone finds it offensive and complains about it, then you can be made to remove it. Fair or not, that‘s just the way it is. [/qb]

Would you think people would find an Iron Cross tattoo offensive? Its an old Imperial German army symbol, from the Napoleanic wars, although the nazi‘s did use a revised version. Basically I wan‘t to know if I would get chewed out for having it.

 

[humint]

I think you‘re playing with fire. Sure, you could say it‘s a Maltese Cross or something, and you may even get away with it. But, your real concern is not getting chewed out, but whether or not you will get kicked out of the Army for having offensive tats or symbols in your shacks.

 

[humint]

Here is some stuff that may help you:

http://www.dnd.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5012/0_e.asp

http://www.dnd.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/019-43_e.asp


EO 101.06
"12. BODY TATOOS:

Members shall not acquire visible tattoos that could be deemed to be offensive (e.g., pornographic, blasphemous, racist) or otherwise reflect discredit on the CF."

 

[Jarnhamar]

My grandfather won an iron cross during ww2. I don‘t see what is so wrong with it. How is us wearing a germanish tatoo any different then an american or french one? We‘ve fought all 3 and worked with all 3 as well.

 

[Garry]

Michael,

Thanks for the cheap shot, I feel much better now.

You wrote:
"I do not agree with censorship and believe in freedom of speech; that freedom comes with obvious limits as recognized by a moral society.."

Define morals. Sex with a 13 yr old? Ghastly- and I concur. However, 100 years ago many were married at 12, and pumping out kids by 13. Ask any of our parents what they thing of Brittany Spears behaviour...she would have been jailed years ago...just as the first woman to ride a motorcycle across the country was- her crime? Wearing pants.

Morals change, for right or wrong, and your morals are yours, but not necessarily mine.

Perhaps they should be. After all, one of the things that defines a country are it‘s social mores and individual morals. In an immigrant friendly nation like ours, however, the old "one shoe fits all" is dead: we are a nation of widely varied customs and morals, and it‘s a heck of a job gaining consensus.

It‘s exacerbated by narrow minded individuals who can‘t let go of the past, and insist on legislating their personal beliefs.

We used to call them "busybodies".

I‘ll agree with you that seeing a Nazi party flag flying in front of a persons house would drive me nuts. What would really cheeze me off is finding out that my tax dollars are paying the rent.

I‘ve been in this position before (seeing things that people did that cheezed me off). You know what I did? Nothing. Why? None of my danged business.

Please don‘t confuse this with, as a society, failing to protect the weak. That involves the rule of law, backed by the will of society. Thank God we still have a semblance of that.

Now, if their pursuit of personal happiness infringed on my ability to pursue mine, then we have a problem. For instance, the Aryan Nation moves in next door. Pleasant? No. However, they bought and paid for the land, my tough luck. If they have the stereo banging at 3 in the morning, keeping me awake, it becomes their poor decision.

You will never be able to legislate common sense (too bad too) nor will you ever agree with 30 million people just exactly what constitutes good moral beliefs. (once again, too bad)

You can, however, pontificate from on high just fine.

Need a q-tip?

Cheers-Garry

 

[Armymedic]

So tell me, where(in the QR&O‘s, DOADs, etc) does it say I can‘t hang the confedrate flag:
1. in my barracks room?
2. in my basement of my PMQ?
3. as a sticker on my car that I drive to work?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Face it...the higher ups have deemed the Condfederate Flag to be offensive so its illegal to display it on DND property whether that decision is right or wrong who can say. Society and us as individuals either find things offensive or not. Its when the individual na dsociety disagree is when we have the problem. If DND policy says nothing racist or offensive is to be displayed, live with it. The military is not a democracy and complaining about it is not going to make legal to hang the Star and Bars from you shack wall. You want to hang it up or the swastika (for that matter)in your own home, I personally don‘t care but remember this your actions on or off duty can bring credit or disgrace to the CF. Its your choice.

 

[Jarnhamar]

129.

I always thought that you cannot display a flag (or not suposed to) unless it was properly mounted and hung. Thats what i‘ve always seen instructors and what not use as a reason during courses for room inspections and what not.

 

[combat_medic]

Armymedic: In the 2 DAOD links posted by humint, it pretty much sums it up;

Harassment is any improper conduct by an individual that is directed at and offensive to another person or persons in the workplace and which the individual knew or ought reasonably to have known would cause offence or harm. It comprises any objectionable act, comment or display that demeans, belittles or causes personal humiliation or embarrassment, or any act of intimidation or threat. It includes harassment within the meaning of the Canadian Human Rights Act(CHRA).

Lots of grey area in there. He||, when I was learning about SHARP, the base harrassment officer in WATC said outright that you couldn‘t even have a flag or poster in your shack or PMQ that was offensive.

 

[Staff]

NDA article 129 is the catch-all for which you may be charged for just about anything someone wants to make stick. Most places, when you clear in you sign your name in two places. One to accept the quarters as is and the other is to affirm that you have read the base ROs and that you understand the terms under which you will be living on government property. Theoretically if you have NOT read these, as all soldiers are supposed to, you can be charged with derilection of duty. If you Have read them, and offend the terms stipulated, you are in contravention of a direct order, which may be charged under NDA article 83. Also, don‘t forget that NDA article 130 covers offences against other Canadian law.
If "other Canadian Law" says that you are prohibited from displaying offensive or derogatory items, there will be two or three charges being laid for the same offence.

Read the regs, ROs and decide if they tell you that you can‘t do a thing. If it doesn‘t say "You can‘t", do it.

A little off topic, but one difference between alot of militaries (and some civilian organizations) is that some work on the principle that either "He didn‘t say I can‘t, so I can" or "He didn‘t say I can, so I can‘t". The first promotes some good initiative, but the secnd keeps you out of s***. You decide. Also remember that it is always easier to beg forgiveness than it is to beg permission.

 

[finbar]

Humint: I went to school in Alabama. University of Alabama in Huntsville - 1980. Back then the Confederate Battle flag was still quite popular. Back of pickup trucks, flying solo on private property next to the stars and stripes, etc ...The University did not tolerate any display of this flag. The state did not display it either. Recently, the state of Georgia also moved to not display this flag. Institutions and organizations have distanced themselves from this emblem and its past associations and connotations.

However, to this day, this flag retains its nostalgia and place in the hearts of some folks south of the Mason Dixon line.

PS: Won‘t be down tonight. It‘s a bitter day in Stalingrad. Will try to break out next week behind a T-34!

 

[axeman]

And one time at band camp......
In the CF mindset it does‘t matter if you overheard something that you did not find offensive, if anyone hears a joke and find it offensive the teller can be charged...

 

[Spr.Earl]

I for one have alway‘s given the carrot when deserved.
This was after a job well done!

Even though to day it‘s frowned upon giving booze as a reward to you subordinate‘s

All‘s I asked was after I gave them the Booze go hide and don‘t be Silly and a good Job Guy‘s!!
(I knew they had their own on average,if they didn‘t they weren‘t Sapper‘s)

Yes at time‘s P.C. is stupid but there time‘s when one must go by the guide line‘s
Note;Guide Line‘s!!

As to Skin book‘s,I was on a Road Move back with 1 C.E.R. to the Wack when we stopped in Blue River over night when the Kack about skin book‘s came out.

The O.C.(Young Lt.) gave a warning order for Bosnia then preceded to give us the new P.C. about Porno, Skin Book‘s i.e. not allowed in your Shack‘s,in the Field,same goes for Poster‘s!
So no porn at all!!

Any Question‘s?

So Cpl #$%%^ ask‘s!

So Sir,I can‘t have skin book‘s,poster‘s in my room,I‘m not allowed to screw my girl friend in my room?

Can I still screw my Buddy?

(As this was when the Alternate Life
Style was made leagal in the Force‘s,about 93/94?)

The Young Lt. had no answer but after regaining his composure said

"I‘ll get back to you on that"

We all roared!!

The poor little bugger was at a loss dealing with us old fart‘s!!
All Heavy Equipment Troop.

 

[Enzo]

SHARP was fun for me. In less than an hour after it ended I was in the NCO‘s office facing a charge from a peer for a joke I made during the SHARP class at his expense. He was offended that I made the joke and that people laughed at it (let‘s just say there was much truth and the timing was excellent). So, a choice was made. Did he want to file a formal charge. No. My MCpl went up one side of me. After the dressing down, my peer was asked if he was satisfied, which he was. And with no formal charge coming, I stood aside and then the MCpl went to town on him big time for making such a stupid play. I didn‘t mind the look of surprise on his face, but I was pissed for a long time. All he had to do was talk to me, I‘d have apologized without any issue at all before that. He had a difficult time with credibility after that for awhile. Platoon didn‘t take to well to that. Settling something in the shacks is preferable to paper in the office. If it‘s that serious, then it had better be worth it.