CANFORGEN 97/08 LDA FAQs

[PMedMoe]

2 MP Unit is a unit.  All the rest are dets of the unit.  That is, there is one MOO and thus oen CFOO for the whole organization.  Therefore, since 2 MP Unit is embodied in the Regular Force, all its dets are Regular Force - regardless of the composition of the individual dets.

Please don't tell me we have reservists receiving LDA when there are Reg F people at Reserve units not receiving it, due to the fact they are posted to a Res unit (that goes into the field regularly).

Note:  I have no issues with full-time reservists receiving LDA.

 

[cujo0031]

I find the administration of LDA to the medical trades quite arbitrary. I'm an officer Posted to a CF Health Services Centre = NO LDA, but my colleges (Same MOC) posted to a clinic at a Field Amb receives their "not so rightfully deserved" LDA. While we do the same job, work in the same environment "comfortable, air conditioned, state of the art" clinic, one officer gets LDA but the other doesn't. I sincerely hope someone looks into this and realizes officers at either Field Ambulances or CF Health Services centers really DON'T deserve LDA as we are not serving the purpose of what the allowance is designed for.

 

[cujo0031]

I find the administration of LDA to the medical trades quite arbitrary. I'm an officer Posted to a CF Health Services Centre = NO LDA, but my colleges (Same MOC) posted to a clinic at a Field Amb receives their "not so rightfully deserved" LDA. While we do the same job, work in the same environment "comfortable, air conditioned, state of the art" clinic, one officer gets LDA but the other doesn't. I sincerely hope someone looks into this and realizes officers at either Field Ambulances or CF Health Services centers really DON'T deserve LDA as we are not serving the purpose of what the allowance is designed for.

 

[cujo0031]

Can anyone believe it, 1 Canadian Field Hospital is a unit receiving LDA!!!!

As far as I know, Specialist MOs (specialist MOs are posted to 1 Canadian Field Hospital) at the rank of Maj. or above who are allowed to moonlight and have a civilian practice (they call it consolidation of clinical skills) while working for the 1 Canadian Field Hospital part-time are receiving LDA! WOW, does anyone know how much Specialist MOs make!! Plus they receive an allowance that clearly are not designed for their operational context!

As an aside, when I was an intern at the hospital, a Maj. MO (internal medicine Specialist) was at the civi. hospital 3 days a week, and I'm assuming he reserved his remaining 2 days of the week to work at his Unit. Not only do these specialist MOs get LDA, they get to pick their postings as they are "in full control" of where they would like to establish their Civi practice while as a mbr of the 1 Cdn Field Hospital.

Wow, I am truly amazed at the administration of LDA! I'm from an army base, and I see the ill and injured coming in through sick parade every morning, working their asses off in the field, those are the ones that should be receiving LDA!

 

[armyvern]

Wow, I am truly amazed at the administration of LDA! I'm from an army base, and I see the ill and injured coming in through sick parade every morning, working their asses off in the field, those are the ones that should be receiving LDA!

Yep, and do you see those ill & injured waiting months to get an appointment with an MO too because those MOs are too busy 2, 3 sometimes 4 days a week "consolidating their clinical skills downtown" while being paid 24/7 (and apprently LDA while they are at it) by the CF to primarily serve CF patients?

Their "primary" role and job serving the CF went out the door long ago thanks to some fancy footwork regarding that 'lil consolidation bit ...

When my troops need to wait months to see an MO because their knee is sore and there's only one MO a day avail at the BHosp while the others "consolidate skills" downtown ... there's a major disconnect in CF roles & responsibilities to it's soldiers and CF priorities IMHO.

 

[Journeyman]

Yep, a waste of money -- for whatever reason, CF doctors have a reputation for medical skills ending at Cepacol.

I'd go to a Physician's Assistant-qualified WO in a heartbeat before a CF doctor.

 

[cujo0031]

Yep, and do you see those ill & injured waiting months to get an appointment with an MO too because those MOs are too busy 2, 3 sometimes 4 days a week "consolidating their clinical skills downtown" while being paid 24/7 (and apprently LDA while they are at it) by the CF to primarily serve CF patients?

Their "primary" role and job serving the CF went out the door long ago thanks to some fancy footwork regarding that 'lil consolidation bit ...

When my troops need to wait months to see an MO because their knee is sore and there's only one MO a day avail at the BHosp while the others "consolidate skills" downtown ... there's a major disconnect in CF roles & responsibilities to it's soldiers and CF priorities IMHO.

Well I admire your objectivity. I would have to say, I'm an officer at the CDU (CF Health Services Center, not a field Hospital, therefore no LDA), probably the only time we see the field is during IBTS/MLOC. I agree with you that we DO NOT fall under the operational context of a field unit. I agree with you further when you say there is a major disconnect in understanding the operational requirements of the average mbr posted to a unit on my base. We should be soldiers/officers first and Medical Professionals second, not the other way around. We are here as a support role, therefore we must understand the context of our mbr's jobs.

 

[armyvern]

Yep, a waste of money -- for whatever reason, CF doctors have a reputation for medical skills ending at Cepacol.

I'd go to a Physician's Assistant-qualified WO in a heartbeat before a CF doctor.

Well, I'd agree with you on that point, but the problem is ... my troops need to wait months to see an MO in order to get referred to appropriate specialist downtown.

It's something I go through every year. I need to see a civ specialist (for my head ;D) "not less than once per year" (the type of tumor that developped in my ear after it's injury has a high reccurance rate) which is recorded in my medical docs and as part of my PCat ... a civ specialist that it already takes months to get in to see. But before I can go there I have to wait months to get in to see an MO to get that official permission referral ... I wait 3 or 4 months for THAT appointment and then get the referral and THEN get to book the specialist appointment downtown where I have to wait months to get in to see. It has taken me up to a year wait for that. That puts me over my required once per year "minimum" period ... I'm also supposed to have an MRI once per year, but did you know the average wait-time in this province is well over 12 months for that? Not to mention that I've been posted 3 times in 3.5 years into different geographical areas, so the MO appointments, specialist appointments and MRI keep getting cancelled because by the time they get space to put me in, I've already been posetd away for months. This spring, I got a nasty email from 2 bases previous to this one about "having missed an MRI appointment" that they had scheduled for me ... that finally was booked by the civ hosp (who notified me at an addy I hadn't lived at for 12 months due to being posted to another province & thus I never did receive the letter notification of that MRI) saying they would take disciplinary action next time I failed to show for a civilian specialist appointment without notifying them that I would miss it or contacting the civ hospital without their required notice time to cancel. Go figure.  ???

I always tell them, may as well book my appointment to see the MO again for the day after my specialist appoint so that I can book the next years appointment that very day after ... that way, my 10 or 11 month wait to see that civ specialist will be within that medically required once per year.

At least two bases have flat out refused to do that for me ... and insist that I can not make the re-booking for an MO appointment until after I have seen the specialist ... so the day after I do, then wait three months to see the MO, then re-book the civvy, wait months to see them ... and am not complying with the requirements of the PCat.

The way I figure it, 3 months of that wait & delay is totally preventable ... if MOs were actually avail at their primary workplace for the majority of their paid CF work time and not downtown 3 or 4 days a week not taking appointments from CF members.

 

[Journeyman]

... if MOs were actually avail at their primary workplace for the majority of their paid CF work time

Maybe if those poor, impoverished MOs got LDA.......  :

 

[Gunner98]

Can anyone believe it, 1 Canadian Field Hospital is a unit receiving LDA!!!!

As far as I know, Specialist MOs (specialist MOs are posted to 1 Canadian Field Hospital) at the rank of Maj. or above who are allowed to moonlight and have a civilian practice (they call it consolidation of clinical skills) while working for the 1 Canadian Field Hospital part-time are receiving LDA! WOW, does anyone know how much Specialist MOs make!! Plus they receive an allowance that clearly are not designed for their operational context!

As an aside, when I was an intern at the hospital, a Maj. MO (internal medicine Specialist) was at the civi. hospital 3 days a week, and I'm assuming he reserved his remaining 2 days of the week to work at his Unit. Not only do these specialist MOs get LDA, they get to pick their postings as they are "in full control" of where they would like to establish their Civi practice while as a mbr of the 1 Cdn Field Hospital.

Wow, I am truly amazed at the administration of LDA! I'm from an army base, and I see the ill and injured coming in through sick parade every morning, working their asses off in the field, those are the ones that should be receiving LDA!

Thanks for joining the party so late and wandering far from your lane.  The LDA decision was made several years ago and does not apply to Specialist MOs.

Are you currently posted at 1 Cdn Fd Hosp or Petawawa, I can't tell from your incomplete profile?  Most of your info is not accurate - check your sources!  Many personnel (all trades) in 1 Cdn Fd Hosp spend as much time in Wainwright or California or Texas as the rest of the Army.  "As far as I know" (and I do have my sources to verify) the info on the Specialists MOs is not accurate and poorly represented by your silly rant. 

That Specialist MO belongs to 1 Cdn Fd Hosp, so what unit do you think he works in those other 2 days per week?  He does not commute from Toronto or Vancouver to Petawawa the other days of the week.  When he sees military patients he cannot bill provincial health insurance and there are not enough of them to fill his days.  Do you want our trauma surgeons working in Pembroke General Hospital or the Base Clinic in Dundurn or at Sunnybrook or Vancouver Trauma Centres.  Not many gun shot wounds or blast trauma cases in Renfrew County or Dundurn, so how would they stay ready for the necessary trauma surgery in KAF!

They do not moonlight, they in fact hold in most cases, chain of command approved civilian, academic positions and act as department heads in university teach hospitals located with major trauma centres.

So what is your point - the sawbones saving soldiers' lives in KAF shouldn't be saving civilians' lives to stay current in his medical competencies.  He should be in a Base clinic handing out aspirin and band-aids!

When you say you were an "intern" - was that as a medical resident, a high school student or with the janitor?

Vern I will PM you soon, I think I can help.

 

[captloadie]

I fully agree with the above post, and further, if we didn't allow CF MOs to moonlight keep up their skills in acivilian environment, how many would stick around? We always hear about the pilot shortage, but we'll alway shave people joining to fly our cool airplanes. How do you entice MOs to join, other than offering them some way to recoop the costs they have incurred for their education?

 

[armyvern]

I fully agree with the above post, and further, if we didn't allow CF MOs to moonlight keep up their skills in acivilian environment, how many would stick around? We always hear about the pilot shortage, but we'll alway shave people joining to fly our cool airplanes. How do you entice MOs to join, other than offering them some way to recoop the costs they have incurred for their education?

I'll not comment on our MO specialists and what they do; they are different. But when our other MOs are spending more days at civ hospitals "maintaining skillsets" then at base clinics serving CF patients, I'd argue that equates to far more than a little "moonlighting". So, if we are going to continue to "pay" them to work for the CF only 2 days a week ... they may as well be civilians and we may as well be issued civilian provincial health cards and start "waiting 3 months to see a doc downtown" to get a referral to see a specialist. That'd save tonnes of money. My wait time is the same, and I'll probably see the same guy I would have seen at the BHosp at that civ hospital ... only the CF isn't paying him a salary anymore to work 2 days a week for us.

Then, put that saved money towards hiring contracted civy "trauma" docs, nurses and GP MOs to deploy; we're doing a lot of that already anyway ... and eerily - I think it would be the same pool that we are currently paying year round now.

Man sick parade with PAs and medics, that's who is there working sick parades anyway. I have full faith in them and their training.

 

[dangerboy]

There are lots of people in the situation you mentioned.  It would be (in my opinion) an administrative nightmare for the clerks to try and figure out if every position in a unit designated to receive LDA should be entitled to it.  Is the system perfect ? No, I am more concerned about the fact that certain organization currently do not receive LDA (the training centres) than that so and so in a unit receives it but never sees the field. 

 

[CombatDoc]

ArmyVern, you clearly have an axe to grind for whatever reason.  However, your recent posts only display your ignorance of our current military medical system.  Where do I start? 

To begin with, your assertion that "when our other  MOs are spending more days at civ hospitals "maintaining skillsets" then at base clinics serving CF patients" is entirely false.  The current mandated proportion of time that GDMO's can spend at civ hospitals for Maintenance of Clinical Skills is 20% - i.e. one day per work week or equivalent (e.g. 1 month in ER every 5 months).  The other 4 days should be spent at the clinic, training, etc.  The veracity of your comments that MOs are spending two, three or even four days a week "downtown" are, quite frankly, hard to believe.  Feel free to PM me with specifics, but I am sceptical of your commentary.

I"ve known many excellent MOs, as well as some who are not so excellent.  However, you paint with a broad brush all military docs as being of marginal competence.  Do you realize that the same folks who save lives in Afghanistan are the same folks seeing sick parade at base clinics and MIRs?  Your faith in PAs and Med Techs is laudable, but their scope of practice is significantly less than the MO with whom they discuss their cases.

Finally, you speak of having to wait 3-4 months for an appointment to see an MO in order to make a civ specialist appointment for your head tumour, as well as over a year to get an MRI.  I don't know where you are located, but I am able to routinely obtain MRIs in less than a month and in some cases within 2 weeks.  Specialist appointments are routinely arranged within 1-2 months, compared to 6-12 months in the civilian sector.  Not sure if this is a Res F or Reg F issue, but again, feel free to PM me.

Cheers.

 

[armyvern]

ArmyVern, you clearly have an axe to grind for whatever reason.  However, your recent posts only display your ignorance of our current military medical system.  Where do I start? 

To begin with, your assertion that "when our other  MOs are spending more days at civ hospitals "maintaining skillsets" then at base clinics serving CF patients" is entirely false.  The current mandated proportion of time that GDMO's can spend at civ hospitals for Maintenance of Clinical Skills is 20% - i.e. one day per work week or equivalent (e.g. 1 month in ER every 5 months).  The other 4 days should be spent at the clinic, training, etc.  The veracity of your comments that MOs are spending two, three or even four days a week "downtown" are, quite frankly, hard to believe.  Feel free to PM me with specifics, but I am sceptical of your commentary.

I"ve known many excellent MOs, as well as some who are not so excellent.  However, you paint with a broad brush all military docs as being of marginal competence.  Do you realize that the same folks who save lives in Afghanistan are the same folks seeing sick parade at base clinics and MIRs?  Your faith in PAs and Med Techs is laudable, but their scope of practice is significantly less than the MO with whom they discuss their cases.

Finally, you speak of having to wait 3-4 months for an appointment to see an MO in order to make a civ specialist appointment for your head tumour, as well as over a year to get an MRI.  I don't know where you are located, but I am able to routinely obtain MRIs in less than a month and in some cases within 2 weeks.  Specialist appointments are routinely arranged within 1-2 months, compared to 6-12 months in the civilian sector.  Not sure if this is a Res F or Reg F issue, but again, feel free to PM me.

Cheers.

Please, point out to me where I called any Doc incompetant?? Where have you pulled that out of? Perhaps my querying why certain base hosp were making me see an MO to get an appt with a specialist and thus making my wait even longer when the PCat that same medical system put me on clearly states: Requires medical follow up with civilian specialist not less than once every year..

As for my wait for MRI ... I have experienced this at 4 different bases in 3 provinces. Ont, NB, and PEI. Each year.

To see the specialist ... same three provinces. Each year.

The wait for the MO appt ... the same base where the Comd staff had ordered us all to record all appt stats as people were moving up 15 places on the waiting lists after months of waiting ... and as furthered to higher HQ.

You want to call me out on that? If so, I will PM you my SN and you can pull me up on your system and check it out for yourself.

Nuff said.

 

[Armymedic]

Wow,
Come to a thread about LDA and we have a bitchfest about the CF medical system.

cujo0031, you are way out of your lane. You are talking crap, and you need to suck it back.

On other notes:
First, GDMOs do/should not moonlight, they are working outside CF facilites to maintain thier competancy, as directed by the medical branch. If they are out of the office (during working hours, and not on leave) collecting pay from the provinvial government; then they are commiting fraud, and should be reported. If they are working nights and weekends "off duty", then that is allowed. We PAs, nurses, pharmacists, and physios all can do tha same thing.

As Simian pointed out, those specialist MOs are not mooonlighting either. They work in civilian facilities paid by DND and allowed to work in in that specific spot becuase of an MOU which gives them privledges in those hospitals.

If on your base, people are waiting months to see an MO under the current CDU model, then there is something wrong on your base;either its under-staffed or incorrectly structured.

Vern,
It seems that you are getting a raw deal. Albiet ENT is one of the most understaffed specialty with some of the longest wait times. As you know it is not unique to Ont. As for your MRI, that is just screwed. Here in Petawawa, thanks to availablitly of scanners on Quebec side, there are guys getting MRIs done in 2-4 weeks.

 

[Armymedic]

if MOs were actually avail at their primary workplace for the majority of their paid CF work time and not downtown 3 or 4 days a week not taking appointments from CF members.

Vern, I am sypathetic of your situation, and agree its not right.

But that comment, and a smiliar one you made in an earlier post, is out of line.

 

[armyvern]

Vern, I am sypathetic of your situation, and agree its not right.

But that comment, and a smiliar one you made in an earlier post, is out of line.

You may not like to hear it, but at that time, at that base, that is how it was (a mere 18 months ago). It wasn not only I who didn not like it. It was everyone who was placed on wait lists for appointments ... then called months later when they still had not recd one to find they had only moved up 10 or 15 spots - some had even slid down the list.  That is also why we were ordered to start recording all this and to report up to our Comd who sent further to have the sit adressed. This was normal, not an exception. This was staff and students sitting in MIRs for hours waiting to get seen each and every day. Being sent away for lunch and told to come back after (even the next day) to see someone ... Not nice to hear, but it happened.

Glad to see that perhaps some rules regarding that and things may be looking up. Maybe this year, I will actually get that annual MRI & spec appt as my PCat says.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Is it possible for a member to get both with the new LDA in effect?

 

[aesop081]

Is it possible for a member to get both with the new LDA in effect?

Can't see why you couldn't. We draw both TD and aircrew allowance at the same time.