Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Kirkhill]

On the OPV front:

Here is one of the, if not the, most modern OPV on the oceans just now.

HNLMS Holland -

The general characteristics of the class is a displacement of 3,750 tons, speed of up to 22 knots, length of 108.4 meters and a range of 5,000n.m. with the speed of 15 knots. The endurance is 21 days. The complement is just 52 people while there is additional accommodation for more than 40 in really spacious rooms (it was like.. a floating hotel to me comparing with other ships such as a Type 23 frigate).

 

Complete with ship's bar apparently

Here's a link to a very nice presentation - lots of facts, photos and videos.

http://navalanalyses.blogspot.ca/2014/11/holland-class-offshore-patrol-boats-of.html

 

[Kirkhill]

Here's a less "glossy" view of the Hollands, but with some really interesting costing information (ca 2010)

For an OPV - called Ocean Going Patrol Vessel by the MOD - it's huge at 3750t. Even if the MoD calls them 'small flexible patrol vessels'. It's bigger than the 3320t M-class it replaces.
There are a couple of reasons for this. First, mild steel is used to build the vessels. This is heavier than the high tensile steel used for frigates. Mild steel is cheaper and since the ships will only do 22 knots, high tensile steel is not necessary. A plus is that this cheaper steel is actually more blast resistant. The second reason is the use of a lot of armour on the ships and the last reason is the need to operate the NH-90 helicopter up to Sea State 5.

Length: 354ft.
Propulsion: Diesel-electric
Max Sustained Speed: 22kts
Range: 5000nm (@15kts)
Endurance: 21 days
Crew: 50 (max. 90 + 100 evacuees)
Armament: 1x 76mm Oto Melara, 1x30mm Marlin WS, 2x 12.7mm Hitrole (all remotely operated)
Stern Launch: 1
RHIB Davit: 1 RHIB
Aviation Facilities: One NH-90 + hangar
Cost: €120 million a piece of which about €30 million is for the Integrated Mast from Thales.

On paper it actually has a lot in common with the notional characteristics of the future Offshore Patrol Cutter from the USCG.

http://www.informationdissemination.net/2010/03/holland-class-opvs-will-need-change.html

Edit to add a further discussion link

http://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.ca/2012/03/neither-frigate-nor-opv-be.html

 

[jmt18325]

I would be in favour of getting 6 very capable Canadian Surface Combatant ships, and something like 12 corvettes (in addition to the AOPS and a patrol boat class to replace the MCDVs).  I think it would serve Canada's needs well.

 

[Kirkhill]

And while about it

A neat little technical article about propulsion systems  http://202.114.89.60/resource/pdf/5220.pdf

It may help to answer why the AOPS opted not to use an all electric drive system based on Azipods

With a well designed system, a mechanical propulsion has a full load efficiency in the range of 98%
whereas an electric drive has an efficiency of about 90--92%.

And it also addresses changes in ships operations that reduce/eliminate the need for a high-speed sprint capability

Apparently the German F123 (designed for 1990) was expected to do the following:

15% of the time Loitering at 0 to 10 kts
55% of the time in Transit at 12 to 20 kts
20% of the time in High Speed Transit at 20 to 26 kts
And
10% of the time in Sprint Mode

Meanwhile the German F125 (designed for 2010) is expected to do:

32% of the time Loitering at 0 to 10 kts
54% of the time in Transit at 12 to 20 kts
14% of the time in High Speed Transit at 20 to 26 kts.
And
Exactly 0% of the time in Sprint Mode.

The elimination of the Sprint Mode, made possible by greater reliance on helos, UAVs and high speed interceptor boats, results in the following change in power requirements (5200 ton frigate):

To achieve a maximum speed of 20 knots (Transit) you need a 15 MW power plant
To achieve a maximum speed of 25 knots (High Speed Transit) you need a 25 MW power plant
To achieve a maximum speed of 30 knots (Sprint Mode) you need a 45 MW power plant

You see the latter in both the Halifax and the Italian Fremms.
Ivar Huitfeldt conforms to the German F125 concept  and the Absalon is scaled according to the Transit model.

Ivar Huitfeldt - 32.8 MW to drive 6645 tonnes through the water at 30 kts
Absalon (same hull form as Huitfeldt) - 16.4 MW to drive 6300 tonnes through the water at 24 kts.

Does the RCN need sprinters or can it manage with drifters?  How many of each?  Can the same hull be used for logistics as for combat?  Can hulls be fitted with additional engines if circumstances demand?

Many thanks to Pat and Mark for finding me some new paths to surf.  :nod:

 

[AlexanderM]

Not saying we need these, but here is what can be done inside 3200 tons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formidable-class_frigate

 

[Stoker]

I would say get 12 of these, 6 on each coast. I was on LÉ Róisínand its quite nice. 1500 tonnes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%89_R%C3%B3is%C3%ADn_%28P51%29

 

[Underway]

Can't do Cyclone on a hull that size without a massive loss in capability.  Also even with a small helo you need a larger ship to do proper helo ops at the sea states that we get in the northern latitudes.  The helo is such an important part of the Canadian TG.

Corvette navies you notice are built by countries that have no need to deal with big oceans, only sail in brown or close to home blue waters and finally have limited funds.  Its no surprise the Med nations, Baltic nations (North Sea included) and South Pacific nations all build corvettes.  The Russian Black Sea fleet has corvettes but their Northern and Pacific Fleets really don't have any (for those same reasons).  No need to build a ship with legs if all you're gonna do is hang out at home in nice calm waters.  The Canadian situation is very different and the job requirements handed to us by the government require a big (relatively) ship navy.  Even the AOP's are a big ship by corvette standards.

If the cost of a ship is based mainly on its weapon/sensor systems then really capable corvettes are going to cost pretty close to the same as a bigger ship.  Unless you accept a loss in capability.  So if you want a less capable navy well then build less capable ships.

 

[Kirkhill]

Can't do Cyclone on a hull that size without a massive loss in capability.  Also even with a small helo you need a larger ship to do proper helo ops at the sea states that we get in the northern latitudes.  The helo is such an important part of the Canadian TG.

Corvette navies you notice are built by countries that have no need to deal with big oceans, only sail in brown or close to home blue waters and finally have limited funds.  Its no surprise the Med nations, Baltic nations (North Sea included) and South Pacific nations all build corvettes.  The Russian Black Sea fleet has corvettes but their Northern and Pacific Fleets really don't have any (for those same reasons).  No need to build a ship with legs if all you're gonna do is hang out at home in nice calm waters.  The Canadian situation is very different and the job requirements handed to us by the government require a big (relatively) ship navy.  Even the AOP's are a big ship by corvette standards.


If the cost of a ship is based mainly on its weapon/sensor systems then really capable corvettes are going to cost pretty close to the same as a bigger ship.  Unless you accept a loss in capability.  So if you want a less capable navy well then build less capable ships.

I believe the sea keeping requirement to manage boats and Cyclone size helos in sea state 5 is what drove the Hollands up to 3750 tonnes and the Svalbard up to 6000 tonnes.

HMS Clyde - at 2000 tonnes can land a Cyclone but has no hangar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Clyde_(P257)

 

[GR66]

Does this meet the criteria for a reasonably capable vessel with blue water helicopter capability, a VLS system, ASuW missiles, mission bays, a smaller crew, an in-production hull, and interoperability with our allies?

https://web.archive.org/web/20140806123312/http://www.austal.com/Resources/PromotionSlides/dd47585d-170b-4e43-a80c-2d849e065b2d/mm-brochure-horiz2011.pdf

 

[AlexanderM]

Does this meet the criteria for a reasonably capable vessel with blue water helicopter capability, a VLS system, ASuW missiles, mission bays, a smaller crew, an in-production hull, and interoperability with our allies?

https://web.archive.org/web/20140806123312/http://www.austal.com/Resources/PromotionSlides/dd47585d-170b-4e43-a80c-2d849e065b2d/mm-brochure-horiz2011.pdf

12 please.

 

[AlexanderM]

I believe the sea keeping requirement to manage boats and Cyclone size helos in sea state 5 is what drove the Hollands up to 3750 tonnes and the Svalbard up to 6000 tonnes.

HMS Clyde - at 2000 tonnes can land a Cyclone but has no hangar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Clyde_(P257)

The Hollands would work just fine, plenty of freeboard and stability, hopefully could add one vls launcher.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I would say get 12 of these, 6 on each coast. I was on LÉ Róisínand its quite nice. 1500 tonnes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%89_R%C3%B3is%C3%ADn_%28P51%29

I was a guest on her at Quebec City in 08.  Very nice little ship indeed, good sized crew, facilities and capability.  Would suit me just fine, she would.  Good pick.

 

[Stoker]

I was a guest on her at Quebec City in 08.  Very nice little ship indeed, good sized crew, facilities and capability.  Would suit me just fine, she would.  Good pick.

So was I, the Irish party really hard ;D

 

[dimsum]

I would say get 12 of these, 6 on each coast. I was on LÉ Róisínand its quite nice. 1500 tonnes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%89_R%C3%B3is%C3%ADn_%28P51%29

I was part of a Lakes Tour when her sister ship Le Niamh was doing her first (?) international tour in 2004.  I heard from various sources their port visit in Toronto was....interesting. 

 

[Stoker]

I was part of a Lakes Tour when her sister ship Le Niamh was doing her first (?) international tour in 2004.  I heard from various sources their port visit in Toronto was....interesting.

So was I we drove from Kingston (namesake visit) and had a time on board.

 

[jollyjacktar]

So was I, the Irish party really hard ;D

Awesome chaps.  I was legless.  Would love a cross pol/exchange to them any time.

 

[dimsum]

So was I we drove from Kingston (namesake visit) and had a time on board.

So you can probably answer this:  Did or did not some HCol suggest that his daughter show the Irish lads a night on the town (to...um...put it diplomatically)?

>

 

[Stoker]

So you can probably answer this:  Did or did not some HCol suggest that his daughter show the Irish lads a night on the town (to...um...put it diplomatically)?

>

Wouldn't surprise me. Can't say for sure as I ended up with severe gyro failure after drinking Jamison's out of a pint glass after the beer ran out. These guys party hard.

 

[jmt18325]

Can't do Cyclone on a hull that size without a massive loss in capability.

The helicopters would be for the smaller fleet of Canadian Surface Combatants and the AORs.  These ships would be used for patrol and things like operation caribbe. 

 

[dimsum]

Wouldn't surprise me. Can't say for sure as I ended up with severe gyro failure after drinking Jamison's out of a pint glass after the beer ran out. These guys party hard.

Dammit.  I had to visit the parents that night (and show them GLA the next day) but I've been hearing stories about the party since then.