Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Colin Parkinson]

Interesting update on UK/ RN frigate construction - 7 ships currently being built in Scotland.

Now seven Royal Navy frigates being built in Scotland

The recent steel-cutting ceremony for HMS Formidable, the third Type 31 frigate, is especially significant as the programme to build 13 frigates on Scotland is now over halfway.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

As previously mentioned the difference between a Type 26 and 31

The Type 26 Frigate – where even the plumbing is quiet

Acoustic performance, hiding sound, is a critical factor in anti-submarine operations. The Type 26 Frigate takes this to a new level.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

 

[Cloud Cover]

As previously mentioned the difference between a Type 26 and 31

The Type 26 Frigate – where even the plumbing is quiet

Acoustic performance, hiding sound, is a critical factor in anti-submarine operations. The Type 26 Frigate takes this to a new level.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Plumbing? Fitted for but not with.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well it would save a lot of money....... Mind you Irving would sell you buckets at $5,000 a piece.

 

[dapaterson]

Well it would save a lot of money....... Mind you Irving would sell you buckets at $5,000 a piece.

...buckets that leak...

 

[SeaKingTacco]

...buckets that leak...

Please…the buckets will be plugged with welding rods.

Unless they get stolen, first…

 

[KevinB]

Please…the buckets will be plugged with welding rods.

Unless they get stolen, first…

The buckets or the welding rod?

 

[OldSolduer]

The buckets or the welding rod?

Both, leaky bucket notwithstanding

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The buckets or the welding rod?

Yes.

 

[Navy_Pete]

FWIW, that kind of bracket on piping to minimize noise transmission has been standard for 30-40 years on ASW ships. Maintaining it through life is a bitch though.

The 3d model is awesome and lets us do a lot on the review side (including combat damage assessments, which can go down to odds of wiring/piping being damaged). Big fan, but it does assume that the build is done IAW the design, and there aren't 'field runs' during build. That is more common in the final outfitting stage once everything is together when all all the modules are together.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A interesting video on the limitations of certain designs

 

[Cloud Cover]

I’m sure the Israeli’s could take a tub like that and turn it into a proper fighting ship.

 

[Rainbow1910]

A interesting video on the limitations of certain designs

TLDR: it’s a design that isn’t built as a traditional combatant but hyper specialized for a post Cold War world of long range and low intensity international peacekeeping. The design emphasizes endurance and peacekeeping operations to a frankly insane degree, there is a requirement for for up to two years away from homeports with an average sea operation time of more than 5,000 hours per year (nearly 60%), including operation under tropical conditions.

The superstructure is split to increase redundancy to damage or mechanical malfunction, alongside a doubling of many, many internal systems for the same reason. The ship is filled with non-lethal weapon systems, has a miniature mission bay, many boat launching/storage areas, multiple hangers and a very bulked out sensor suite.

Basically it’s a ship designed for an era that already passed us by.

 

[quadrapiper]

TLDR: it’s a design that isn’t built as a traditional combatant but hyper specialized for a post Cold War world of long range and low intensity international peacekeeping. The design emphasizes endurance and peacekeeping operations to a frankly insane degree, there is a requirement for for up to two years away from homeports with an average sea operation time of more than 5,000 hours per year (nearly 60%), including operation under tropical conditions.

The superstructure is split to increase redundancy to damage or mechanical malfunction, alongside a doubling of many, many internal systems for the same reason. The ship is filled with non-lethal weapon systems, has a miniature mission bay, many boat launching/storage areas, multiple hangers and a very bulked out sensor suite.

Basically it’s a ship designed for an era that already passed us by.

IIRC some of the Royal Navy's (and probably other country's) pre-WWI cruisers followed a similar approach, adjusted for the era.

Is it an era that's passed by? Pirates, warlords, cartels, sundry terrorists, and so on need dealing with whether or not there's a renewed need to care about peer conflicts. One of these German frigates can cut about. say, the east coast of Africa, freeing up a CSC, Burke, or T26 to eyeball the Russians and Chinese.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Norway is looking for Frigates as well

France, Germany, UK, US make Norway’s billion-dollar frigate shortlist

The envisioned frigate buy will represent Norway’s biggest defense investment ever, surpassing the acquisition of F-35 fighter jets.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Rainbow1910]

Norway is looking for Frigates as well

France, Germany, UK, US make Norway’s billion-dollar frigate shortlist

The envisioned frigate buy will represent Norway’s biggest defense investment ever, surpassing the acquisition of F-35 fighter jets.

www.defensenews.com

Not sure what Norway's plan is here given that they seemingly want to grab ships that are currently being built off the shelf and operate them as is in cooperation with a partner. Given the fact much of NATO is undergoing rapid and long overdue rearmament, there is precious little excess that anybody would seemingly be willing to part with.

The Type 26 and Type 31 are desperately needed by the Royal Navy to replace their current vessels, parting with any of these vessels would be a major pain point. The Type 31 is rather empty and lacking in capability Norway likely wants while the radar fit of the Type 26 is likely not up to par for a nation currently operating SPY-1 and AEGIS.

FDI from France comes with all of the French weapons, sensors and their systems. It is an entirely different ecosystem compared to what they operate now with largely American/Spanish equipment. The French also need the FDI as well to help fill holes in their own fleet given they have delayed their own orders to fill the Greek order already.

The F126 is a gigantic ship with not a lot of capability for all that tonnage, it is similar to the F125 frigate in the fact that it wastes a lot of space and weight on insane long range operational readiness requirements for missions that have been out of date for a decade or two. There is a lot of capability that does not extend to what Norway needs and is useless in a proper combatant for the Baltic and North Sea. Will likely be quite pricey as well.

Constellation is similar to the Type 26 and FDI in the fact that the US is very unlikely to part with any to Norway, given the US Navy desperately needs those vessels within its own fleet. It is one of the most potent combatants of the bunch and shares in the US equipment ecosystem that Norway is currently involved with, I think it is the best option likely. Vard has apparently put forward building hulls for this potential order in Romania and shipping them to Norway for fitting out, the same as is currently done with Norway's coast guard vessels.

 

[Underway]

Not sure what Norway's plan is here given that they seemingly want to grab ships that are currently being built off the shelf and operate them as is in cooperation with a partner. Given the fact much of NATO is undergoing rapid and long overdue rearmament, there is precious little excess that anybody would seemingly be willing to part with.

The Type 26 and Type 31 are desperately needed by the Royal Navy to replace their current vessels, parting with any of these vessels would be a major pain point. The Type 31 is rather empty and lacking in capability Norway likely wants while the radar fit of the Type 26 is likely not up to par for a nation currently operating SPY-1 and AEGIS.

FDI from France comes with all of the French weapons, sensors and their systems. It is an entirely different ecosystem compared to what they operate now with largely American/Spanish equipment. The French also need the FDI as well to help fill holes in their own fleet given they have delayed their own orders to fill the Greek order already.

The F126 is a gigantic ship with not a lot of capability for all that tonnage, it is similar to the F125 frigate in the fact that it wastes a lot of space and weight on insane long range operational readiness requirements for missions that have been out of date for a decade or two. There is a lot of capability that does not extend to what Norway needs and is useless in a proper combatant for the Baltic and North Sea. Will likely be quite pricey as well.

Constellation is similar to the Type 26 and FDI in the fact that the US is very unlikely to part with any to Norway, given the US Navy desperately needs those vessels within its own fleet. It is one of the most potent combatants of the bunch and shares in the US equipment ecosystem that Norway is currently involved with, I think it is the best option likely. Vard has apparently put forward building hulls for this potential order in Romania and shipping them to Norway for fitting out, the same as is currently done with Norway's coast guard vessels.

Norway is in a position to wait as their current frigates are not that old. Their eventual choice will probably just extend the build time for the yard on whatever ship they choose. There is also the option to do something like take ship #5 of a run of 8 ships and then get ship #7 if the building nation is ok with that drumbeat change.

 

[Kirkhill]

The Type 31 is also being built in Poland for the Poles (at Gdynia) and in Indonesia for the Indonesians.

MIECZNIK-class Multi-Role Frigates, Poland

MIECZNIK-class multi-role frigates are being built to modernise the Polish Navy's fleet. Service entry expected in 2029.

www.naval-technology.com

Latest Details on Poland's Miecznik Frigate Program - Naval News

During the MSPO fair in Poland, PGZ-MIECZNIK revealed the latest information on the Miecznik-class frigate program for the Polish Navy.

www.navalnews.com

According to statements by representatives of the consortium, work on the future ORP Wicher is progressing on schedule, and will not be adjusted for the time being.

To date, the first 300-ton mega block has been built, has already been brought out of the hall, and is being painted (as of early September). The upper part of the mega block is expected to be ready by the end of the first quarter of 2025, and the stern mega block will be built by the end of June next year. The bow mega block is being produced by a subcontractor.


The Crist shipyard from Gdynia replaced Remontowa Shipbuilding from Gdansk in this role. This part of the Wicher should be ready by the end of 2025. The ship’s launch is expected to take place in the second quarter of 2026, with a very high completion rate, set at around 95%.

Keel laid for future Indonesian Navy frigate

Indonesian state-owned shipbuilder PAL recently laid the keel of a new frigate ordered by the Indonesian Navy. The vessel will be a variant of the Type 31 or In

www.bairdmaritime.com

Indonesian state-owned shipbuilder PAL recently laid the keel of a new frigate ordered by the Indonesian Navy. The vessel will be a variant of the Type 31 or Inspiration-class that is being built for the UK Royal Navy by defence technology firm the Babcock International Group.

The frigate will comply with Lloyd's Register's naval rules and that it will be the largest surface warship to be built in Indonesia. Upon completion, the vessel will have a length of 138.7 metres, a displacement of 5,700 tonnes, and a diesel propulsion system that will deliver speeds of up to 28 knots.

The frigate is the second and final vessel in the Fregat Merah Putih ("Red and White Frigate") class, as the frigates will be known in Indonesian Navy service. Their armament will include anti-ship missiles, surface-to-air missiles, a 57mm naval gun, two 40mm naval guns, and 12.7mm machine guns.

If the Norwegians want more ships I don't think they would be too worried about doing the work in their home yards. They have regularly farmed out construction of their ships.

Their Nansen's were built at Navantia in Spain.

 

[Kirkhill]

Meanwhile OMT (Odense Maritime Technologies - also part of the Irving efforts on the AOPS and CSCs) is developing new ships for the Danes.

NEW NAVAL VESSELS FOR DENMARK – OMT

odensemaritime.com

Increased focus on combat capabilities for new Danish patrol ships - Naval News

The future Danish patrol ships will feature greater weight and combat capabilities following revised threat assessments...

www.navalnews.com

90m LOA, 1100 Tons DWT, 15 crew, 40 Pax, 70 Berths, 32 TEU modules on board.

The Danes are still going with their modularized max-flex solutions but are hardening up their cores.

The Danske Patruljeskibe K/S consortium – made up of Terma, Odense Maritime Technology (OMT) and PensionDanmark – was in June last year awarded a contract by the Danish Defense Acquisition and Logistics Organisation (DALO) to undertake ‘front end’ engineering and design activity for a new class of flexible patrol ship for the RDN. The two-year contract represents the first part of a long-term plan to deliver the RDN a class of up to six flexible patrol ships and at the same time reinvigorate Denmark’s national capability for warship design and build.

“The [design] has now evolved into a more capable military vessel than was originally envisaged. So it was born as a patrol ship, but it has now become more of a ‘combatant’ capable of undertaking [military] mission tasks as well as serving as a patrol ship. The modular philosophy of the ship remains. But the ship will now have air and surface warfare capabilities and a sensor package that will come closer to the capability of a frigate.”

Hans Schneider, CEO of Danske Patruljeskibe

NEW NAVAL VESSELS FOR DENMARK – OMT

odensemaritime.com

...

This seems to be in keeping with some recent guidance from the Royal Navy as well. Technology is moving too fast for traditional design build strategies.

Royal Navy calls for industry views on modular outfitting | Shephard

MoD looks at viability of NavyPODS and modular design

www.shephardmedia.com

...

OMT is also tied into the Singapore Multi-Role Combat Vessel

News – DSTA – OMT

odensemaritime.com

Designed as a mothership for unmanned systems in all domains, the MRCV is suitable for numerous types of missions and is adaptable for future upgrades. The design addresses the dynamic security landscape and technological advancements and is setting new standards for large naval combat vessels.

...

OMT is also involved in a Small Boat project of the EU - EUROGUARD.

News – EUROGUARD – OMT

odensemaritime.com

The consortium is coordinated by the Estonian shipbuilding company Baltic Workboats with OMT as a key technology contributor . The primary objective of this initiative is to develop a modular and semi-autonomous surface vessel platform equipped with a remote control system, aiming to strengthen sea defense capabilities across Europe. The kick-off involved workshops in Tallinn and a shipyard visit to Nasva, Saaremaa.

OMT is part of a consortium of 23 companies and research institutes from France, Spain, the Netherlands, Italy, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Sweden, Spain and Estonia. The project total budget amounts to 95 million euros, with 65 million euros from the European Commission and 30 million euros from participating countries and companies themselves. "With modularity and adaptability being the core of OMT naval ship designs, the EUROGUARD project is a great platform for demonstration of seamless integration of mission modules and payload systems using the CUBEDIN concept" , says Thomas Eefsen, CCO of OMT.

CUBEDIN

The newest arrival within modular shipbuilding to provide the maritime industry with more standardised shipbuilding and flexible design options than ever before.

cubedin.com

...

The USN may have had trouble adapting to modular payloads but there seems to be a strong market for the Danish concept.

 

[KevinB]

Norway is in a position to wait as their current frigates are not that old. Their eventual choice will probably just extend the build time for the yard on whatever ship they choose. There is also the option to do something like take ship #5 of a run of 8 ships and then get ship #7 if the building nation is ok with that drumbeat change.

Me, I'm just waiting for the announcement that Canada is going to build CSC for them...

 

[Cloud Cover]

Can you imagine waiting until 2050 for a new navy sh….