Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Colin Parkinson]

There is a simple solution, lease helicopters and crews from TC, like the CCG does. Get another 5 Bells 429's, paint them gray and equip them with any radio's required. The pilots and crews already have security clearances.

 

[Furniture]

There is a simple solution, lease helicopters and crews from TC, like the CCG does. Get another 5 Bells 429's, paint them gray and equip them with any radio's required. The pilots and crews already have security clearances.

That doesn't change the reality that it would take up bunk space for the people who fly and maintain the aircraft. That means less people for other tasks, which might be more important to the RCN, or the GoC.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

CCG seems to think helicopters are worth the expense and extra mouths to feed. Generally in my day it was a pilot and technician. If they had a lot of flying to do, then they double up. Plus who would be so foolish to build a ship with a helicopter hanger and no accommodations for the helicopter crew?

 

[Kirkhill]

CCG seems to think helicopters are worth the expense and extra mouths to feed. Generally in my day it was a pilot and technician. If they had a lot of flying to do, then they double up. Plus who would be so foolish to build a ship with a helicopter hanger and no accommodations for the helicopter crew?

They had 20 more bunks...until the navy decided they needed 20 more bosuns.

2012 STX
45 Crew 40 supernumeraries

2024 RCN
65 Crew 22 supernumeraries

 

[Halifax Tar]

They had 20 more bunks...until the navy decided they needed 20 more bosuns.

2012 STX
45 Crew 40 supernumeraries

2024 RCN
65 Crew 22 supernumeraries

The crewing, from a Log standpoint, is FUBAR on AOPs. Who ever made up that crewing model should be given a stern negative feedback note.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Just a small note: I am not suggesting a Cyclone style Air Det. A smaller airframe, like the 429's suggested by Colin can be done in a military setting with a Det of five people.

And Cloud Cover: I think you and I have a different POV on the medivac. You are talking about the ship providing medivac to someone else outside the ship as a service (to me that's SAR). I was talking about evacuating someone from the ship to medical facilities, hence my reference to use of the helicopter to get the injured crew member to the nearest point where a Twotter can take over.

P.S. A Twin Otter may mot be readily available up there, so for your scenario (outside assistance to medivac) it would still be faster to get the sick/injured person to medical facilities at the 130 Kts+ of a helicopter than the 17 Kts (maximum, with no ice) of the AOPV.

 

[Underway]

If anyone bothered to (on the AOPS thread) watch the video I posted on the HDW (presented by their then XO) you'll see they were using a UAV for ice nav. It was brought for media purposes and used for operational ones as well.

Need to recce that ice and in some cases harbour entrances.

 

[Furniture]

They had 20 more bunks...until the navy decided they needed 20 more bosuns.

2012 STX
45 Crew 40 supernumeraries

2024 RCN
65 Crew 22 supernumeraries

It's not boatswains filling those spaces, there are a lot of Mar Techs getting time at sea to learn the platform, as well as NWOs who need time at sea to get their tickets. We also sailed with extra Log pers, because as @Halifax Tar pointed out, the crewing as designed is FUBAR.

 

[Navy_Pete]

The crewing, from a Log standpoint, is FUBAR on AOPs. Who ever made up that crewing model should be given a stern negative feedback note.

I think it was done with the intent that would be done remotely, which didn't make much sense to me at the time from what I'd seen with how well that doesn't work on deployments, but my opinion and $2 would have gotten you a cup of coffee (this was a while ago when things were cheaper).

It was pointed out but we were told it was a new way of doing business and would be fine. Also, ignore that cruise ship companies etc that do that have a much bigger shore support arm.

 

[Kirkhill]

It's not boatswains filling those spaces, there are a lot of Mar Techs getting time at sea to learn the platform, as well as NWOs who need time at sea to get their tickets. We also sailed with extra Log pers, because as @Halifax Tar pointed out, the crewing as designed is FUBAR.

Perhaps the original crew plan wasn't so far off? It sounds to me as if you and @Halifax Tar are saying that a lot of the supernumerary berths are being taken up by trainees. You are effectively running a floating academy. A situation required by a new ship in a novel area of operations with a shortage of qualified sailors.

If you give it another 5 to 10 years and you might have the ships bedded in? Or will they continue in service as naval academies?

 

[Kirkhill]

I think it was done with the intent that would be done remotely, which didn't make much sense to me at the time from what I'd seen with how well that doesn't work on deployments, but my opinion and $2 would have gotten you a cup of coffee (this was a while ago when things were cheaper).

It was pointed out but we were told it was a new way of doing business and would be fine. Also, ignore that cruise ship companies etc that do that have a much bigger shore support arm.

The Norwegians eventually ended up, I believe, running with 3 divisions on their Svalbard. Two of which were on board at any one time. They rotated one division out every couple of weeks. Relief and continuity and familiarity as well as pride of ownership.

...

Could anything be learned from those cruise ship operations?

 

[Navy_Pete]

The Norwegians eventually ended up, I believe, running with 3 divisions on their Svalbard. Two of which were on board at any one time. They rotated one division out every couple of weeks. Relief and continuity and familiarity as well as pride of ownership.

They are also running them much closer to home port than we are, so very different CONOPs compared to ships running the Artic passage 1000 miles from anything. Crewing solutions need to take how you are doing things and where you are in the world. Our forward deployed support teams for ships is really bare bones because it's expensive, but you really need people there in person so the remote support option is pretty stupid.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

CCG does 28 day cycles and does crew changes in the Arctic.

 

[Kirkhill]

They are also running them much closer to home port than we are, so very different CONOPs compared to ships running the Artic passage 1000 miles from anything. Crewing solutions need to take how you are doing things and where you are in the world. Our forward deployed support teams for ships is really bare bones because it's expensive, but you really need people there in person so the remote support option is pretty stupid.

How about the factory trawler fleets then?

I worked with companies like American Seafoods and Trident that ran fleets of 15 to 25 ships with crews of one to two hundred. They were home ported in Seattle and operated out of Dutch on seasonal schedules. They fished year round when the quota allowed ranging from the Pribs and St Lawrence to the Donut Hole and Russian waters if they could get quota there. Their ships were strengthened, some of them, after market, for the ice by adding extra ribs and plates and they fished open waters and slob.

All their log/adm was done out of Seattle. Replenishment and cargo transfer were done at Dutch (sometimes the holds were emptied into Japanese freighters at sea in the shelter of any available bay or lea shore). Ships were refitted in yards in Seattle and Victoria (Todd now Vigor and Seaspan got a lot of that business). Fuel was purchased in Dutch from local bunkers that were replenished by barge (Crowley is one name that I remember as being big). The local warehouse held nets and packaging materials (bags and boxes) as well as victuals and some common spares and consummables. A lot of use was made of air freight and air support.

The permanent staff in Dutch was only 2 or 3 people that were augmented by fly-ins from Seattle during the actual fishing seasons.

...

Apparently Dutch Harbor had a population of 4214 in 2023. Iqaluit has a population of 7429. Perhaps it could serve the same role as Dutch?

 

[Kirkhill]

Especially if these projects get off the ground as well - Tuk and Grays Bay.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/conservative-platform-northern-infrastructure-1.6161270

Stantec continues work on Nunavut’s Grays Bay Road and Port project - Canadian Consulting Engineer

Following the announcement of additional financial stimulus, West Kitikmeot Resources (WKR) has commissioned Stantec to continue providing engineering and

www.canadianconsultingengineer.com

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/tuktoyaktuk-erosion-mitigation-proejct-meeting-1.7157166

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/totally-unacceptable-tuktoyaktuk-mayor-road-contractors-decry-state-highway-1.7146876

 

[Kirkhill]

Aerial view of Dutch Harbor

 

[DBNSG]

Just a small note: I am not suggesting a Cyclone style Air Det. A smaller airframe, like the 429's suggested by Colin can be done in a military setting with a Det of five people.

A few years ago (pre COVID ) I flew back to Halifax from St Johns and shared a row with a Coast Guard crewman of the Louis St Laurent. He was flown off the Louis at Sea into Iqaluit then to St Johns and then Home to Halifax. He mentioned that the CG crews LOVED the 429 as seven rotating guys and their gear could be flown further distances to larger Airports. It kept the Ship on its planned routes and far fewer rotation flights compared to the old MBB-105's.

BTW the Marines have punted about 27 UH-Y's to the Arizona desert. Far younger than our Griffins, Marinized with Folding Rotors and they look like a Montreal built model. Better equipped and more capable than the 429 not to mention weapon tested and MX-family under the nose. Hmmm 8 AOPS could sop up about 12 of those.

Now in the Canadian tradition, I await the incoming.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Especially if these projects get off the ground as well - Tuk and Grays Bay.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/conservative-platform-northern-infrastructure-1.6161270

Stantec continues work on Nunavut’s Grays Bay Road and Port project - Canadian Consulting Engineer

Following the announcement of additional financial stimulus, West Kitikmeot Resources (WKR) has commissioned Stantec to continue providing engineering and

www.canadianconsultingengineer.com

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/tuktoyaktuk-erosion-mitigation-proejct-meeting-1.7157166

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/totally-unacceptable-tuktoyaktuk-mayor-road-contractors-decry-state-highway-1.7146876

 

[Furniture]

Perhaps the original crew plan wasn't so far off? It sounds to me as if you and @Halifax Tar are saying that a lot of the supernumerary berths are being taken up by trainees. You are effectively running a floating academy. A situation required by a new ship in a novel area of operations with a shortage of qualified sailors.

If you give it another 5 to 10 years and you might have the ships bedded in? Or will they continue in service as naval academies?

They will likely still be conducting a lot of training as the CPFs self divest. It will be the mid-2030s before the AOPVs will be getting much rest. By then they will be at about half of their life expectancy as well.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Interesting update on UK/ RN frigate construction - 7 ships currently being built in Scotland.

Now seven Royal Navy frigates being built in Scotland

The recent steel-cutting ceremony for HMS Formidable, the third Type 31 frigate, is especially significant as the programme to build 13 frigates on Scotland is now over halfway.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk