Canada/US Border Integrity Thread

[brihard]

And maybe stop the people that run the illegal immigrant transport network of human smuggling.

Absolutely. Lots of back end investigation and enforcement to be done there. A lot of that is sinking more resources into focused criminal intelligence to build up to workable files.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The EU is multilateral. No one country dominates. No country has more than 18.6% of the total population or 24.2% of GDP (both Germany). They are an integrated union with relatively greater political equality.

An economic union between Canada and the U.S. wouldn’t stand a chance of being that. It would be utterly US dominated. We would have little to no meaningful say over most implicated policies.

And that is bad, how? I don't like our economic policies so for me at least, it would be a plus.

And that is different from the current situation in what way?

We wouldn't have to be subjected to substandard services at marked up prices

Looking at you.... Telesat

 

[Fishbone Jones]

And here I thought Trump had an issue with migrants going into his country from ours. Maybe THEY should be doing something about it like some here expect us to…

And that's the controversial thinking that stalls things, pisses people off and ends up causing retaliatory actions.

I never entered the discussion pretending to have any solution to shifting US policy driving people north across the border to seek asylum. I simply said I have no blind faith in Trump and have no reason to think for a second he’d act in our interests against his own. You offered a variety of ideas that, for reasons I pointed out, likely aren’t viable or realistic.

This is one of those situations where you’re sharing a mattress with an elephant, and you can’t help feeling when it rolls over.

You want to know what I think off the cuff? Try to negotiate such that we can return people back south. Demand that as a quid pro quo for us working to stop people crossing from our side. Greatly restrict the possibility of lawful status to those who do cross and get processed at a port of entry. Significantly boost resources to CBSA, IRCC, RCMP, and IRB to enhance enforcement between ports of entry and to greatly speed up apprehension, asylum/immigration claims processing and adjudications, and removals where warranted. Be prepared for the reality that a lot of people will be on our soil for quite a while or indefinitely, and identify economic off-ramps for those who have some real potential value to challenged sectors of our labour market. Adequately resource integration services and supports for those who cannot ultimately be removed.

None of that is terribly thought out; I pondered it as I typed.

Problem is that ultimately boils down to a bunch more government jobs for a few years, more program spending, and more foreigners in Canada for the shorter or longer term. At best that’s not very great, and for a lot of people most of that isn’t palatable at all.

There that wasn't hard was it? It appears you're advocating for what I've been saying since the beginning. We have to sit down and talk. There's some good ideas there for integration that might spark some interest from the US. if we can find a wedge we both like, to pry things open, All Trumpside deals can be worked out. Joint participation is where trust between us and them gets started.

A lot of this is semantics. However, someone has to step in and short circuit trudeau. I watched him today being inflammatory and causing ill will. Basically, spoiling for a fight. He knows he's toast and is trying to make things as difficult as possible for the Conservatives from what I can fathom. It looks like PP doesn't want to be involved, until officially in charge. I think that's a mistake. I think he aught get down to Mar-a- Lago and at least introduce himself. The relationship between Trump and our liberals is poisoned beyond salvage. Trudeau is going to continue being a dick and Trump is going to continue taunting him, but I think it's more a personal thing between them than a country thing.

 

[Remius]

And that's the controversial thinking that stalls things, pisses people off and ends up causing retaliatory actions.

No it’s pointing out the hypocrisy based on political leanings.

Canada should secure its border and do its job.

If the northern border is such an issue for the US, they should do the same.

 

[dapaterson]

I also will admit that I am a big believer in American Capitalism and look at closer integration with the United States through that lense.

 

[CBH99]

I am thinking about an EU type economic union without the Brussels bozos involved. The EUs biggest problem is there are just too many Countries involved.

We already have NORAD as a joint HQ, let's expand that to include Customs & Border Patrol, Collective Defence, etc. Canada's biggest problem is we are diametrically opposed Worldview to the Americans. It really shifted though when we rejected BMD.

I also will admit that I am a big believer in American Capitalism and look at closer integration with the United States through that lense.

I'm a big believer in American capitalism also, but if we were ever in some kind of official union with the US we would have to confront & change some things such as food safety

There would be some obvious changes to the way our local governments were structured/operated, some good & some bad - but one of the biggest changes would be the subtle domestic things we'd be faced with changing for them to be accepted

For example - the quality of food in American supermarkets is overall a lesser quality than Canadian supermarkets.

We've all seen videos of people who bought fruit that turns out to be...odd.

The recent banning of certain food dyes in foods is a step in the right direction, as is banning putting fluoride in the water.



Or supplement companies that have 2 manufacturing lines for the same product - One for the American consumer, and one for the Canadian consumer (the American product including ingredients that are banned in Canada)


As much as I like the freedoms that would come from having the Constitution as our general legal framework, being able to elect our judges, being allowed to elect our senators (if we still had a senate) - I do NOT trust the relationship that exists between corporations & governments.

Some things would have to be addressed before I could really jump on board.

 

[brihard]

And that's the controversial thinking that stalls things, pisses people off and ends up causing retaliatory actions.

There that wasn't hard was it? It appears you're advocating for what I've been saying since the beginning. We have to sit down and talk. There's some good ideas there for integration that might spark some interest from the US. if we can find a wedge we both like, to pry things open, All Trumpside deals can be worked out. Joint participation is where trust between us and them gets started.

A lot of this is semantics. However, someone has to step in and short circuit trudeau. I watched him today being inflammatory and causing ill will. Basically, spoiling for a fight. He knows he's toast and is trying to make things as difficult as possible for the Conservatives from what I can fathom. It looks like PP doesn't want to be involved, until officially in charge. I think that's a mistake. I think he aught get down to Mar-a- Lago and at least introduce himself. The relationship between Trump and our liberals is poisoned beyond salvage. Trudeau is going to continue being a dick and Trump is going to continue taunting him, but I think it's more a personal thing between them than a country thing.

Trump’s entry point is 25% tariffs and destroying our economy. He openly talks about economic force to compel us into joining the U.S. No, that’s not just a ‘let’s talk about the border’ thing, or some Art of the Deal ghostwritten BS. Even the premier most motivated to kowtow and try to cut a side deal came back with her tail between her legs telling us to be ready for this to happen.

This is not a matter of a refusal to be reasonable or constructive on Canada’s part.

 

[YZT580]

aren't most of our illegals coming across the 49th from Mexico and places south? If Trump is successful, that problem should eventually go away and in the meantime, provide assistance to the Americans in whatever form we can to control the southern border. Our problem to solve arrives in Airplanes and they can be stopped before they actually enter Canada if the government has the will to do so. No papers, get back on the airplane: end of story

 

[dapaterson]

aren't most of our illegals coming across the 49th from Mexico and places south? If Trump is successful, that problem should eventually go away and in the meantime, provide assistance to the Americans in whatever form we can to control the southern border. Our problem to solve arrives in Airplanes and they can be stopped before they actually enter Canada if the government has the will to do so. No papers, get back on the airplane: end of story

Past experience with a Trump presidency suggests that such an administration's border controls will be ineffectual.

 

[brihard]

aren't most of our illegals coming across the 49th from Mexico and places south? If Trump is successful, that problem should eventually go away and in the meantime, provide assistance to the Americans in whatever form we can to control the southern border. Our problem to solve arrives in Airplanes and they can be stopped before they actually enter Canada if the government has the will to do so. No papers, get back on the airplane: end of story

By and large, no. Roxham saw more Nigerians and Haitians than anyone else. They mostly entered the U.S. legally by air before coming to Canada. Lots flew into the U.S. specifically to take advantage of Roxham and were only in the U.S. for the time it took to get from wherever they landed to upstate New York. The Americans didn’t seem to do anything to dissuade that.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Ah well. There's enough people here that don't seem willing to do anything but moan and complain about the bad orange man. You don't need my contrary input. I'll just sit back and, like HB, hope for an equitable economic union with honest Im scapitalism and shared security. I hope we have some reasonable, broad minded people at the negotiating table.

 

[brihard]

Ah well. There's enough people here that don't seem willing to do anything but moan and complain about the bad orange man. You don't need my contrary input. I'll just sit back and, like HB, hope for an equitable economic union with honest Im scapitalism and shared security. I hope we have some reasonable, broad minded people at the negotiating table.

I can’t speak for others, but I go to work each day and have skin in the game. Offhand I know of several others here who do too. Sitting back and hoping is not a luxury universally enjoyed.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

By and large, no. Roxham saw more Nigerians and Haitians than anyone else. They mostly entered the U.S. legally by air before coming to Canada. Lots flew into the U.S. specifically to take advantage of Roxham and were only in the U.S. for the time it took to get from wherever they landed to upstate New York. The Americans didn’t seem to do anything to dissuade that.

It works the same going the other way. Lots fly into Canada and immediately head south. According to this article, Trump has good reason to make us fix our border.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canada-yielding-87-per-cent-of-all-terror-suspects-stopped-at-u-s-border-crossings.

We could probably start with requiring visas for any other nationality, landing in Canada, other than Canadians. There's quite a few.

Entry requirements by country or territory - Canada.ca

Find out the entry requirements based on the country or territory you are travelling from and what documents you will need.

www.canada.ca

 

[brihard]

It works the same going the other way. Lots fly into Canada and immediately head south. According to this article, Trump has good reason to make us fix our border.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canada-yielding-87-per-cent-of-all-terror-suspects-stopped-at-u-s-border-crossings.

We could probably start with requiring visas for any other nationality, landing in Canada, other than Canadians. There's quite a few.

Entry requirements by country or territory - Canada.ca

Find out the entry requirements based on the country or territory you are travelling from and what documents you will need.

www.canada.ca

Yup, it’s definitely a bilateral problem. We absolutely have to tighten up on some of our entry options into Canada. Student seems to be the one most prone to abuse in recent years. I would be all for clamping down much harder on that, including pushing hard to verify studies, and making sure schools actually exist and are delivering real education and training. There’s a major role for the provinces in that too.

Canada also has serious issues with essentially fraudulent labour market assessments that are allowing for a ton of lowest skill foreign labour to come in and exist in very grey spaces economically. They’re high risk for dropping off the radar. Many are badly exploited by employers.

I don’t have any info on who is crossing into the U.S. from Canada to be able to take a stab at visa requirements. I remember we reestablished visa requirements for Mexico back in the summer or so. If you’ve seen decent data on country of origin for people intercepted crossing into the U.S. from Canada I’d definitely be interested. Anecdotally I’ve heard India is a major country of original but I don’t know if that holds up in terms of data.

Even simply really clamping down on student visa abuse, and bullshit hole in the wall ‘career colleges’ that offer a storefront and little more would probably go a long way on a number of issues.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I can’t speak for others, but I go to work each day and have skin in the game. Offhand I know of several others here who do too. Sitting back and hoping is not a luxury universally enjoyed.

Every Canadian has skin in the game. Working at the coal face doesn't make that unique. More intense, but not unique. Thanks for your service.

At this point any ideas I've had have been shot down. I can't get consensus on Trump. All I have left at this point is hope, that the Canadian team sorts it out.

 

[Remius]

It works the same going the other way. Lots fly into Canada and immediately head south. According to this article, Trump has good reason to make us fix our border.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canada-yielding-87-per-cent-of-all-terror-suspects-stopped-at-u-s-border-crossings.

We could probably start with requiring visas for any other nationality, landing in Canada, other than Canadians. There's quite a few.

Entry requirements by country or territory - Canada.ca

Find out the entry requirements based on the country or territory you are travelling from and what documents you will need.

www.canada.ca

Americans won’t like needing a visa to cross our border.

Nor will our commonwealth allies and a slew of others. Is there a country you are concerned about on that list that doesn’t require a visa?

The problem is that those countries will slap visa requirements on Canadians in return.

There is also a negative effect on tourism and other trade business by having visas. By all means we should have visas but they should be targeted and not blanket for everyone.

I would also suggest a bit more scrutiny and screening at the ports of entry though.

As mentioned, tightening up foreign student numbers that are less than legit was a good start. There has also been a slow down on bringing extended family over.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Yup, it’s definitely a bilateral problem. We absolutely have to tighten up on some of our entry options into Canada. Student seems to be the one most prone to abuse in recent years. I would be all for clamping down much harder on that, including pushing hard to verify studies, and making sure schools actually exist and are delivering real education and training. There’s a major role for the provinces in that too.

Canada also has serious issues with essentially fraudulent labour market assessments that are allowing for a ton of lowest skill foreign labour to come in and exist in very grey spaces economically. They’re high risk for dropping off the radar. Many are badly exploited by employers.

I don’t have any info on who is crossing into the U.S. from Canada to be able to take a stab at visa requirements. I remember we reestablished visa requirements for Mexico back in the summer or so. If you’ve seen decent data on country of origin for people intercepted crossing into the U.S. from Canada I’d definitely be interested. Anecdotally I’ve heard India is a major country of original but I don’t know if that holds up in terms of data.

Even simply really clamping down on student visa abuse, and bullshit hole in the wall ‘career colleges’ that offer a storefront and little more would probably go a long way on a number of issues.

While I agree somewhat, I doubt Trump cares about our foreign student problem. That's trudeau's fault 100% and is just one of the many damaging programs PP will have to deal with. It's the terrorist problem, that according to the article, is worse than that of the US southern border. That is what we need to get a handle on to satisfy the GOP.

I don't know much about fentanyl smuggling but if I had to guess the Chinese triads are getting the precursor chemicals, mixing them and running most of it out of BC. Weed is also a big smuggled product out there. Ontario and Quebec have the reservations to contend with.

 

[dimsum]

Every Canadian has skin in the game. Working at the coal face doesn't make that unique. More intense, but not unique. Thanks for your service.

At this point any ideas I've had have been shot down. I can't get consensus on Trump. All I have left at this point is hope, that the Canadian team sorts it out.

If you can’t get consensus on Trump, in a forum that is fairly right-leaning in Canada, maybe that is saying something.

Or that the consensus on this forum is not the same as your view on Trump.

 

[GR66]

Trump’s entry point is 25% tariffs and destroying our economy. He openly talks about economic force to compel us into joining the U.S. No, that’s not just a ‘let’s talk about the border’ thing, or some Art of the Deal ghostwritten BS. Even the premier most motivated to kowtow and try to cut a side deal came back with her tail between her legs telling us to be ready for this to happen.

This is not a matter of a refusal to be reasonable or constructive on Canada’s part.

As much as it pains me to admit, I think @Fishbone Jones has somewhat of a point.

It's not a matter of kowtowing to Trump but rather understanding your opponent. He thrives on being the big man and belittling his opponents and when openly confronted he takes it personally and wants to win out of spite. Why play to his game plan?

No, we shouldn't bend over and say "Please Sir, may I have some more?" but getting into a schoolyard confrontation of "I double dog dare you because if you do I'll do it right back but harder!" is not likely to result in any type of quick resolution.

Instead we should remain calm but firm. Express our regret at the threatened actions but acknowledge some of the legitimate concerns he has raised. At the same time we make a full court press to explain to everyone how our interlocked economies bring great advantages to both the United States and Canada and equally explain how the imposition of these sanctions will negatively hurt both of economies.

Don't overtly and preemptively declare how we're going to retaliate against his tariffs, but rather reach out to every US member of Congress, Senator, State Representative, Governor, Mayor, Chamber of Commerce, Business and Community leader that we can reach explain calmly yet firmly that IF these tariffs are imposed and reasonable agreements on how to resolve the President's concerns can't be made in order to remove the tariffs then we will, regretfully, have no choice but to defend our economic well being by taking offsetting actions including out own tariffs, etc. in response...and make it very clear to each of these States/Districts/Industries/Companies the significant negative economic impact it will have on THEM...again if we are regretfully, forced to take such actions.

Broad US opposition to the tariffs will in my opinion go a lot further in convincing President Trump to change course than will shrill denunciations and overt threats of retaliation.

$.02

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Americans won’t like needing a visa to cross our border.

Nor will our commonwealth allies and a slew of others. Is there a country you are concerned about on that list that doesn’t require a visa?

The problem is that those countries will slap visa requirements on Canadians in return.

There is also a negative effect on tourism and other trade business by having visas. By all means we should have visas but they should be targeted and not blanket for everyone.

I would also suggest a bit more scrutiny and screening at the ports of entry though.

As mentioned, tightening up foreign student numbers that are less than legit was a good start. There has also been a slow down on bringing extended family over.

Not especially, but the world is a much more dangerous place than even 10 years ago. It's hard to figure out who is who in the zoo. The list should certainly be looked at with a more jaundiced eye.

The US given our intermingled trade and work force will be something to be dealt with separately. As will the tariffs.

A 25% across the board tariff will kill jobs and be a massive, expensive venture on both sides, considering that while building a car, sub assemblies, parts and complete vehicles cross the Ambassador and Gordie Howe bridges, back and forth, 6 -12 times. That's one example. There are others.

As much as I don't care for Gov Whitmer (D-MI), she is pushing back on tariffs, trade and manufacturing and allying with Ontario and Ford.

Whitmer pushes back on Trump’s tariff threats, cites Canada ties

Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer is voicing concerns over President-elect Donald Trump’s proposed tariffs on Canada, warning they could hit both sides of the border where it hurts the most — the wallet.

www.ctvnews.ca