CAF Security Forces [Split from RCN Anti Drone Weapon]

[brihard]

We are so close to a slide into uniforms and deportment.

 

[Furniture]

With respect to the business of securing places and securing things -

It seems to me that the RAF Regiment types with WMIKs and Mortars and Rapiers securing the airfields are doing a different job than the RAF Police, and the MOD Police, controlling access to Hangars, Towers, Control Rooms and other sensitive areas.

The RAF Regiment may kill you but they can't arrest you. Much like the Household Division.

And I will continue to plunk for a local element. Make them 10:90 units if it makes you feel better. With some portion of the 90 being on shift at any given time.

....

Combat Readiness Force

See more from the Royal Air Force

www.raf.mod.uk

Structure

See more from the Royal Air Force

www.raf.mod.uk

RAF Recruitment | RAF Police | Royal Air Force

As a member of the RAF Police, you will conduct criminal and security investigations. specialising in many areas from Aviation Security to Law Enforcement.

recruitment.raf.mod.uk

Join our Force with a difference - Join MDP

The Ministry of Defence Police - Home

www.mod.police.uk

We can't fill one evening a week, one weekend a month PRes jobs right now. How are we going to fill the 2300 graveyard shift on Christmas Eve, at multiple locations across the country, for the next several decades?

My occupation struggles to retain RegF people because of the shift work, how are you going to attract and retain shift workers on a part-time basis?

 

[daftandbarmy]

We can't fill one evening a week, one weekend a month PRes jobs right now. How are we going to fill the 2300 graveyard shift on Christmas Eve, at multiple locations across the country, for the next several decades?

My occupation struggles to retain RegF people because of the shift work, how are you going to attract and retain shift workers on a part-time basis?

If you just wait a bit, there will be an ARes General - somewhere in the system - bragging about how the Territorial Defense Battalion Groups can take all that on for the RCAF (in the expectation that an appropriate promotion and gong will be forthcoming)

 

[QV]

I've commented on this over the years a few times. I maintain the MP branch should be burned down and rebuilt into a CAF Force Protection Unit potentially falling under DGDS as that organization's operational arm with it's main aim doing D&S on military installations worldwide, CFBs, deployed ops, embassies.

Divest almost all domestic policing functions to local civ (the call volume is not there), unit disciplinary matters handled by local chain of command, retain an investigative body (smaller version of NIS) for serious internal issues.

CAF needs to ditch "policing" altogether. It would retain all it's specialized functions (CP/air marshal etc) and grow a few such as K9, surveillance. It would do convoy security, FOB security and PW handling.

It would provide interesting and diverse career paths for those in the MOS. It could still be augmented by Cmre at lesser sites, but that overall cost which is massive, could be dramatically reduced with the recovered funds being shifted elsewhere.

Security for sensitive installations would remain in-house to the CAF, not contracted out, as that should be for accountability. There would still be career progression, postings and deployments. This would free up RCAF, Cdn Army, RCN personnel to focus on primary job and not be tagged with a "secondary duty" of WASF or whatever.

I don't know how much PY growth is needed, but I suspect existing numbers would be sufficient for securing the real sensitive sites and assessing whether Cmre should be phased out or not in the areas with a lesser need. There would need to be a lot of cost moves initially to get everyone where they needed to be and up and running. Probably need more NCMs then officers, so that ratio ought be re-jigged... my spitballing -again.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Counter Intelligence is very properly an Intelligence Command function.

CFNCIU has always been under CFINTCOM. I was more questioning why it needs to have its own trade and be taken away from the MPs.

I was also poking fun at CFINTCOM being a command. It worked just fine when it was CDI under VCDS.

If sailors knew how to read or how to do math they'd be very upset with you right now.

Just remember a Radian is 60° degrees in the Navy, not 57.296°.

 

[Kirkhill]

We can't fill one evening a week, one weekend a month PRes jobs right now. How are we going to fill the 2300 graveyard shift on Christmas Eve, at multiple locations across the country, for the next several decades?

My occupation struggles to retain RegF people because of the shift work, how are you going to attract and retain shift workers on a part-time basis?

How about the same way that 7-11 does?

Did you read any of that stuff that I posted about the RAF Regiment vs RAF Police vs MOD Police?

Did you note that they were asking for a commitment of 27 days a year for the Reserve component?
Did you note that the requirement was for people who lived adjacent to RAF fields to apply locally? These weren't jobs for Tcheuchters in London.

Requirements (RAF Police Reserve)

• Be aged 18-54 Applicants must apply no later than age 54 and 6 months in order to attest before 55th birthday Ex-Regulars and specialist entrants may be considered on a case by case basis
• You must be a UK citizen or holder of dual UK/other nationality
• You must hold a full manual UK driving licence. An automatic-only driving licence will not be accepted.
• Commit 27 days per year
• Meet the fitness and health criteria
• Pass the Defence Aptitude Assessment

Reserve role locations

Reserve roles exist in specific reserve squadrons, which in turn are located at specific RAF bases. As you will not be resident at those bases (except on multi-day operations or exercises), geographic proximity to where you live is important. These are the bases where this role is active:

502 Sqn, JHFS Aldergrove, Co Antrim

603 Sqn, Edinburgh, Edinburgh

605 Sqn, RAF Cosford, Shropshire

609 Sqn, RAF Leeming, North Yorkshire

614 Sqn, Cardiff

2503 Sqn, RAF Waddington, Lincolnshire

2620 Sqn, RAF Marham, Norfolk

2622 Sqn (Highland), RAF Lossiemouth, Moray

2623 Sqn, RAF Honington, Suffolk

2624 Sqn, RAF Brize Norton, Oxfordshire

3 Police Sqn, RAF Honington, Suffolk

 

[dapaterson]

For security tasks that include levels of escalation up to and including the use of deadly force, there is a requirement for regular training and certification. In your 27 days a year model, how much of that time is actual useful employment, and how much is training and certification?

Even if we assume a mild one day monthly of such regenerative activities, you've just lost 44% of the output. The value proposition is minimal.

 

[Furniture]

How about the same way that 7-11 does?

My bad... I assumed you were trying to be serious.

There is no comparison between hiring a clerk to work at 7-11, and hiring a person to use deadly force to protect the national interest. Not only are the jobs very different, but the kind of suitable candidate is entirely different. Even on the most basic level, 7-11 has the benefit of offering you more money to work that shift, the CAF does not. You get paid the same on Christmas day as you get paid for a random Tuesday in Feb.

Did you read any of that stuff that I posted about the RAF Regiment vs RAF Police vs MOD Police?

Did you read it? Under every wing they listed a RAF Regiment Sqn, and a reserve Sqn... Who do you think does the bulk of the daily shift work? The 27 days a year reservist, or the RAF Regiment guy getting a salary to work all year long?

Did you note that they were asking for a commitment of 27 days a year for the Reserve component?
Did you note that the requirement was for people who lived adjacent to RAF fields to apply locally? These weren't jobs for Tcheuchters in London.

@dapaterson already covered the 27 days, and others have already covered that not every base has a large enough population center close by to make the local reserves a realistic possibility.

I'm definitely not opposed to following the RAF model of a regular component doing the daily work, with reservists trained and on location to augment for domestic and overseas taskings. What I am opposed to is the notion that a job like 24/7 security is best done with reservists, or that filling those positions with part-timers would be easy.

 

[brihard]

My bad... I assumed you were trying to be serious.

There is no comparison between hiring a clerk to work at 7-11, and hiring a person to use deadly force to protect the national interest. Not only are the jobs very different, but the kind of suitable candidate is entirely different. Even on the most basic level, 7-11 has the benefit of offering you more money to work that shift, the CAF does not. You get paid the same on Christmas day as you get paid for a random Tuesday in Feb.


Did you read it? Under every wing they listed a RAF Regiment Sqn, and a reserve Sqn... Who do you think does the bulk of the daily shift work? The 27 days a year reservist, or the RAF Regiment guy getting a salary to work all year long?


@dapaterson already covered the 27 days, and others have already covered that not every base has a large enough population center close by to make the local reserves a realistic possibility.

I'm definitely not opposed to following the RAF model of a regular component doing the daily work, with reservists trained and on location to augment for domestic and overseas taskings. What I am opposed to is the notion that a job like 24/7 security is best done with reservists, or that filling those positions with part-timers would be easy.

The UK also has a population density supportive of this approach. Their bases are invariably close to population centers, they have half again the population of Canada in an area smaller than Newfoundland and Labrador.

Canada is much more spread out, and several bases that are in play are in areas highly unlikely to be supportive of an ‘able to be relied upon’ local PRes strength. If Canada also decides to develop a PRes security force capability, cool; but it should never be allowed to be baked in to planning assumptions for routline ops until and unless several years of experience proves otherwise.

 

[Jarnhamar]

CAF needs to ditch "policing" altogether. It would retain all it's specialized functions (CP/air marshal etc) and grow a few such as K9, surveillance. It would do convoy security, FOB security and PW handling.

Last FY the MP responded to 40,006 calls for service in Canada. I'm not sure if that's alot or not very much for a police force?

Offloading it to civpol would probably require some additional hiring and funding for local detachments.

I also wonder if civpol would ignore some of the regular or routine calls the MP get.

Scrap the NDA act or have local police enforce it and things like NDs and disobeying lawful orders?

I don't know how much PY growth is needed, but I suspect existing numbers would be sufficient for securing the real sensitive sites

How many MP would it take to provide an adequate level of security?

 

[Remius]

Last FY the MP responded to 40,006 calls for service in Canada. I'm not sure if that's alot or not very much for a police force?

OPS answered 400K calls in 2023.

Offloading it to civpol would probably require some additional hiring and funding for local detachments.

Deals to be made with provinces and municipalities. They already send sexual assault cases to civ police as I understand it

I also wonder if civpol would ignore some of the regular or routine calls the MP get.

Quite likely and I bet they wouldn’t pursue a lot of things.

Scrap the NDA act or have local police enforce it and things like NDs and disobeying lawful orders?

Service offences remain the books for summary hearings? Maybe bring back regimental police?

How many MP would it take to provide an adequate level of security?

My guess is a lot. And would they still get spec pay?

 

[Jarnhamar]

OPS answered 400K calls in 2023.

And only around 1500 officers I think. Earning their paycheck I guess.

Deals to be made with provinces and municipalities. They already send sexual assault cases to civ police as I understand it

My understanding is complainants can choose to have civilian police investigate or it remain with CFNIS. I've heard the CAF has higher conviction rates than civilian police when it came to sexual assault but also heard the opposite.

Quite likely and I bet they wouldn’t pursue a lot of things.

I bet that would upset higher ups when civilian police, who especially don't care what their rank is, blow off minor shit.

Service offences remain the books for summary hearings? Maybe bring back regimental police?

Only to have the CO decide it's not worth pursuing because someone is a good guy/ays hockey.
Were regimental police able to lay charges on their own violation?

My guess is a lot. And would they still get spec pay?

I don't see why they should keep spec pay being glorified security guards. The CAF could appeal to their sense of duty and explain taking away spec pay will help the CAF afford more positions.
"You like time off don't you?!"

 

[brihard]

Last FY the MP responded to 40,006 calls for service in Canada. I'm not sure if that's alot or not very much for a police force?

Not a lot. In a year on the road I was likely over 1000 calls. Granted many would be two member calls. But that also includes a ton of super minor stuff that could just as easily not even get dispatched and be dealt with through, eg, online reporting or collision centers.

“Calls for service” stats can be tough to compare; you need to know what precisely is getting included.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Not a lot. In a year on the road I was likely over 1000 calls. Granted many would be two member calls. But that also includes a ton of super minor stuff that could just as easily not even get dispatched and be dealt with through, eg, online reporting or collision centers.

“Calls for service” stats can be tough to compare; you need to know what precisely is getting included.

Too soon?

 

[brihard]

Too soon?

View attachment 89353

Never too soon to make fun of MPs murder-death-killing an animal.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Never too soon to make fun of MPs murder-death-killing an animal.

TBF the 'coon was clearly guilty of dumb insolence

 

[lenaitch]

I wonder how many of the MP positions are operational policing, or direct support roles that would need to be done by a sworn officer? And what would conversion over to civilian police presence look like?

A local police department would likely not need to telco MPs at a 1 to 1 ratio, if normal policing ends up being rolled in with the rest of municipal prioritization; the alternative being dedicated bodies who solely and exclusively replace the MPs. So, a domestic in the PMQ patch in Petawawa would go in through OPP dispatch and be subject to triage along with any other ongoing OPP files in that area. Alternatively, the OPP establish and fund new positions at 1:1 and a gaggle of them only police CFB Petawawa. I’d suggest the former is much more likely, and CAF just pays for a few more positions based on call volume added to the detachment.

On the investigative side, does CFNIS convert entirely to, say, RCMP with a 1:1 replacement and fenced funding? Or do their files also get subjected to prioritization within the RCMP federal policing intake? Many NIS files would likely struggle to triage federally; at most they’d be akin to minor municipal drug trafficking files. So there’s probably not an existing template to drop this into.

Some of the ‘protective’ MP stuff - CP, Air Marshal - might have a more natural home within the new Security Force, and become a bit of a cookie to dangle those within the Security Force as a specialized career option. Or for reasons I’m not immediately thinking of, maybe those stay strict MP.

But I think all of this deserves a ground up assessment starting with a blank whiteboard.

There is no precedent for a federal policing contract in Ontario so we a split-balling, but if it followed the current OPP contract model, a place like Pet or Borden would simply be rolled into the local detachment. Even when absorbing a municipal service, they will no longer establish a dedicate detachment. Very briefly state, a contract involves a combination of a per-capita amount plus a calls-for-service amount (for initial contracts, that number is drawn from existing records for, I believe, three years). For that you get a police service; no site security, property checks, key control, etc. The ability/authority to control or limit people on the property would be questionable. Anything that is specific under the NDA, federal traffic regs, etc. would be difficult, both because of the movement of personnel but their concept of 'closest car'. It may be that a neighbouring detachment unit is closer. I could really see this happening at Borden.

It would largely be new ground since a CF facility is both a work space and a residential space. They would have to sort out some kind of equivalent to a Police Services Board which is a requirement under the Community Safety and Policing Services Act. There would also be no communications linkage between the police service and local CoC on individual incidents, even if they impacted operational matters, as I assume there is with MPs. As well, the CoC would have no input into how, why or when the policing service is delivered, which could be a good thing or bad thing.

If it involved a municipal PS like Ottawa or North Bay, there is no model for contract policing. Municipal PSs do contract policing of other municipalities but they are free to do it in any way that makes both parties happy and so long it satisfies the Ministry that it is 'adequate and effective'.

 

[Fabius]

If we wanted to switch the police function on our bases and for our forces to a civilian structure, I’m thinking that a simpler, cleaner structure would be to create a standalone civilian federal police force similar to the US DOD police or UK MOD police.

 

[KevinB]

If we wanted to switch the police function on our bases and for our forces to a civilian structure, I’m thinking that a simpler, cleaner structure would be to create a standalone civilian federal police force similar to the US DOD police or UK MOD police.

Except that US DoD Police operate under the mandate of the US Marshall Service, they go to FLETC and take the same courses that the USMS do to become a Deputy.
DoD LE only provide security for the Pentagon, some annexes (inc DIA sites) and a security detail for the Sec Def.


Each service also has their own civilian police as well. Generally they work access control with the service’s MP’s, and lodger unit personnel that rotate through FP duties for bases entry gates. They also conduct Policing inside the base with MP’s.

Each service also has an investigation unit that are entirely separate from both.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I don’t see anything in the NDA preventing the MND from setting up a DND police service, but frankly, why would he? Either use the mPs or bring in the RCMP. Contracting Provincial/Municipal Services is about the most complicated and difficult solution.