Maxman1
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 1,548
- Points
- 1,160
Hopefully they don't just pick and choose what courses they want and disappear for the summer (something that totally didn't happen at my unit last year).
Britain's Conservatives planning to bring back compulsory national service.
- Thread starter gryphonv
- Start date
FSTO
Army.ca Fixture
- Reaction score
- 5,863
- Points
- 1,210
For all you conscription haters: They chattering classes are chatting. To me, National Service means more than going to the Army. Conservation, Emergency preparedness, Elderly Care, Child Care, are all options.
www.theglobeandmail.com
www.airquotesmedia.com
Opinion: Is military conscription making a comeback?
You don’t need to be a military hawk to fear the worst for Europe and for NATO. The idea of mandatory service, which until recently seemed preposterous, is being debated
www.theglobeandmail.com
2024 UK "change" election with Andrew MacDougall
SUBSCRIBE : Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts | YouTube | RSS Twitter Instagram Facebook
www.airquotesmedia.com
For all you conscription haters: They chattering classes are chatting. To me, National Service means more than going to the Army. Conservation, Emergency preparedness, Elderly Care, Child Care, are all options.
Opinion: Is military conscription making a comeback?
You don’t need to be a military hawk to fear the worst for Europe and for NATO. The idea of mandatory service, which until recently seemed preposterous, is being debated2024 UK "change" election with Andrew MacDougall
SUBSCRIBE : Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts | YouTube | RSS Twitter Instagram Facebook
I finally got around to reading the G&M article. I thought it was a good summary of the issue.
I agree with your comments about national service, it does not necessarily imply military service. It will for most countries, as the combat arms tend to be the most manpower intensive tasks facing the country that are unpleasant enough to require compulsion.
Of course, this is all academic in Canada. We will be at least a year into WW3 before any politician would consider introducing a new National Resources Mobilization Act.
- Reaction score
- 246
- Points
- 680
Assuming it wasn't just before an election. Then it will have to wait.
For all you conscription haters: They chattering classes are chatting. To me, National Service means more than going to the Army. Conservation, Emergency preparedness, Elderly Care, Child Care, are all options.
Opinion: Is military conscription making a comeback?
You don’t need to be a military hawk to fear the worst for Europe and for NATO. The idea of mandatory service, which until recently seemed preposterous, is being debated2024 UK "change" election with Andrew MacDougall
SUBSCRIBE : Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts | YouTube | RSS Twitter Instagram Facebook
Countries that have national service usually have some sort of deal for their young people. Like free or cheap postsecondary for example. The British Tory proposal was nothing but rank generational warfare to secure the votes of seniors. Something not said, was that if they didn't end up serving in the military, they were going to be used to address all the complaints about service in hospitals and clinics and seniors homes over there. A country with some of the worst prospects for young people in the developed world which gives huge benefits to old people now wants to conscript young people to be free labour for the country and the old? Disgusting. But not shocking.
I think national service is great to good character and habits. It's great to build national cohesion as people from different parts of the country and backgrounds socialize. But demanding that young people do this while they face record student debt, a housing crisis and stagnant wages, is morally repugnant. If we want them to serve, we should uphold our end of the bargain.
All that said, this idea is a complete non-starter in Canada for military service. What could perhaps be considered is some kind of paramilitary training that enable them to serve in local civil defence. Might help reduce the CAF domestic burden. Few months of drill, dress, deportment, first aid, fitness and training necessary to help respond to disasters, etc. I can't imagine more than 6 months would be necessary. But again, this needs to come with some obligations to young people in return.
^ Will add that the American GI Bill is essentially this kind of generational contract but in voluntary form. Serve 5 years. Get 4 years of post-secondary with no cost limit that is transferable and divisible within your family. They also get VA loans for mortgages and get some health benefits for life. That is a massive set of rewards in total, for 5 years of service. Especially compared to their civilian peers. It's a pathway to social mobility in the US.
I don't think we can afford to emulate that to the same extent. But I'd love to more generous education reimbursement program that is tied to training completion for reservists and time in for reg force. $5000 eligibility for finishing BMQ/BMOQ. $10 000 eligibility for becoming trade qualified. Then adjust the current VAC Education Benefit limits of $40k for 6 years and $80k for 12 years. We gotta give our reservists more than $8k total. I would also love to see something equivalent of a VA loan. Maybe the government pays CMHC fees for trade qualified members and veterans? And heck, given the enduring doctor shortage, even healthcare access might be an inducement to serve, these days.
Part of the broader problem, both in the UK and Canada, is that there's a lack of recognition of military service as workforce preparation. It's just crudely seen as a way to discipline young people. Almost a punishment. The Americans understand that military service is not just a tool for social mobility, but also massively beneficial to industry. 5 years of military service and 4 years of post-secondary produces a skilled, disciplined and knowledgeable employee who can be easily trained. Not an accident that so much of the nuclear fleet, the USN's PG school, several space and flight test ranges are in the same state as Silicon Valley.
I don't think we can afford to emulate that to the same extent. But I'd love to more generous education reimbursement program that is tied to training completion for reservists and time in for reg force. $5000 eligibility for finishing BMQ/BMOQ. $10 000 eligibility for becoming trade qualified. Then adjust the current VAC Education Benefit limits of $40k for 6 years and $80k for 12 years. We gotta give our reservists more than $8k total. I would also love to see something equivalent of a VA loan. Maybe the government pays CMHC fees for trade qualified members and veterans? And heck, given the enduring doctor shortage, even healthcare access might be an inducement to serve, these days.
Part of the broader problem, both in the UK and Canada, is that there's a lack of recognition of military service as workforce preparation. It's just crudely seen as a way to discipline young people. Almost a punishment. The Americans understand that military service is not just a tool for social mobility, but also massively beneficial to industry. 5 years of military service and 4 years of post-secondary produces a skilled, disciplined and knowledgeable employee who can be easily trained. Not an accident that so much of the nuclear fleet, the USN's PG school, several space and flight test ranges are in the same state as Silicon Valley.
- Reaction score
- 27,401
- Points
- 1,090
In part that is the CAF all but abandoning "do your initial contract then take those skills away into the civilian workforce". The absurd pressure to retain everyone strongly influences that.
This also plays out in very different ways for officers and ncms. I got a substantially subsidized undergrad and two fully subsidized graduate engineering degrees, which would be highly valuable in the civvie world. Meanwhile we try really hard to make sure that NCMs don't get training that would make qualifying in the civvy world straightforward.
One of my dreams for the CAF is to build a community college in Borden and run two year programs that deliver 2 yr college diplomas and trades training to new privates inside 2 yrs.
- Reaction score
- 17,016
- Points
- 1,010
We don’t throughput enough people in training and then retain far too many people, too long.
- Reaction score
- 21,958
- Points
- 1,360
Although gates changes slightly, the CAF has an HR system that is mired in 80s-style policy/rules-based demographic shaping, and not anything close to a realistic, adaptive HR management model.
- Reaction score
- 17,016
- Points
- 1,010
FJAG
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 13,745
- Points
- 1,160
I guess the UK won't have an issue with it now since Labour has won and has roundly criticized national service.
Re Canada. I couldn't agree more. We need to make military service attractive and get away from the "come train when you feel like it" for the PRes. There are already basic concepts that could help if properly applied. Obligatory service requires pay back by years of service for certain education benefits. That could be coupled with 1) service payback for basic and DP1 training itself; 2) RESO training where DND pays university tuition and expenses; 3) Community college course tuitions for selected service support / medical trades.
We also have regulations for reservists being ordered to train which are roundly ignored. That could be coupled with a level of "mandatory training" consisting DP 1 courses and of a reasonable number of annual days a member must attend (say one weekend per month and two weeks in the summer) while other training or activities are strictly voluntary.
From what I understand, DND gets enough RegF applicants to join, but has severe problems in processing applications in a timely manner or providing the requisite training for many trades and classifications.
Re Canada. I couldn't agree more. We need to make military service attractive and get away from the "come train when you feel like it" for the PRes. There are already basic concepts that could help if properly applied. Obligatory service requires pay back by years of service for certain education benefits. That could be coupled with 1) service payback for basic and DP1 training itself; 2) RESO training where DND pays university tuition and expenses; 3) Community college course tuitions for selected service support / medical trades.
We also have regulations for reservists being ordered to train which are roundly ignored. That could be coupled with a level of "mandatory training" consisting DP 1 courses and of a reasonable number of annual days a member must attend (say one weekend per month and two weeks in the summer) while other training or activities are strictly voluntary.
From what I understand, DND gets enough RegF applicants to join, but has severe problems in processing applications in a timely manner or providing the requisite training for many trades and classifications.
See above for obligatory training. DP1 is expensive. To allow people to release shortly after without a reasonable service payback period just makes no sense.
See above. I think we fail dismally in leveraging community colleges especially for reservists. Two years is a good period. It provides two winter and spring terms of instruction at the college and three summers for completing the military elements of DP1. It's especially useful if we grab young teenagers who could continue to live at home, near the college, during the winter/spring terms.
This varies substantially. And some of it is terrible organization. How long is POET? Like 6 months? And it's supposed to be the equivalent of a 2 yr college diploma. We do that at a quick pace, have high failures, then have months of wait for their actual trade course (like say AVS). Similar issues for everything from vehicle to weapons techs.
But this training philosophy is the complete opposite of how we train officers. Education is separated from training. And we give a long time for education. And short time for training. Most officer trades have about a year of formal occupation training, give or take, during or after 4 years of school. The same idea needs to be applied to NCM training. Build a community college at Borden and a Cegep at St Jean along with basic training there too. This way a new recruit is guaranteed about 2.5 years in one place. Program selection based on occupation. Rolling admissions with an intake every 4 months (three semesters a year). 6 semesters (8 for Cegep) in one spot. First semester is BMQ. Fourth semester is OJT. And when they graduate, every trade should have an obligation to get them to a unit within a maximum of 6 months. Preferably 4 months.
Doing something like this has advantages too. Even over civilian colleges. Get a non-traditional recruit who has some knowledge gaps? Academic staff at the college can tailor a program. Reducing the bouncing around the country as a private will appeal to a lot of older recruits, possibly with dependants. Fixed schedules also mean multiple entry points and flexibility with anybody struggling. Need to recourse BMQ or a review semester? Add a semester. Eventually, every training school knows they have to start a course every 4 months. And every unit knows a new private is coming every 4 months.
And heck, the number of programs to be offered doesn't have to be huge either. Programs for electronics, structures, electromechanical systems, administration, health sciences, etc can cover multiple occupations across services and provide enough of a base to only need 4-6 months of actual trades training after.
Yes, I've thought about this a lot. Mostly because I got so much education through the CAF. And I've compared that experience to so many young people and NCMs that I've talked to. And it's convinced me that something like this (while expensive) would actually boost recruiting and even create better trained personnel.
foresterab
Full Member
- Reaction score
- 309
- Points
- 760
Your comments remind me of one of the last visits I had with my Grandfather - ex RCAF Flight Engineer in WW2. While touring an aviation museum he was talking about the Commonwealth Air Training Program and his experiences under it. Previous to enlisting he was attending university as an engineering student but he described his time as "the most intensive college education possible in the shortest amount of time" and "was a great leveler of backgrounds and wealth as it was about smarts and ambition that allowed someone to succeed".
While I wouldn't advocate for something as big as the Commonwealth Air Training Program it does make me think of how could education be accelerated to allow more time for training...especially if it was trade specific experience instead of generic square bashing parade work.
- Reaction score
- 27,401
- Points
- 1,090
I admire your optimism that the 1950s processes of the CAF are actually 1980s...
Indeed. One of the problems with our Hodge Podge of schools and training programs is the lack of a consistent schedule. It's that lack of consistency that makes it hard to scale. Everything is more as hoc or even bespoke. Something like what I posted above can actually be scaled much more easily by throwing lot of money and a few more bodies at the problem. Doubling a college class size is much easier than having to organize many more serials of 8 month long trades courses.
Heck, we could actually use a system like this for foreign military assistance. We could be training a lot more Ukrainians right now with something like this, for the long haul. Even if this war ends next month, they'll still need lots of technicians, medics, loggies, sappers, etc for their military 27 months from now. People get way too wrapped up in now much can we train in a quarter and forget that there's long term training needs too.
- Reaction score
- 6,275
- Points
- 1,040
We've had some programs in the past where people went to college for 2 years, did OJT in the summers related to the trade, then on completion of the diploma, did some delta training for specifics and then hit OFP. There used to be a stoker's program embedded at Memorial University that consistently pumped out 20-30 people a year into a highly stressed trade that we cleverly shut down. But was essentially the same concept as RMC and the officer training, just done for a NCM trade.
There are apparently similar programs that still exist but seems to have very little uptake (or awareness or interest) because they start after you have joined and you need to apply, vice being able to apply to that diploma program with oblig service at the recruiting center.
- Reaction score
- 27,401
- Points
- 1,090
That's why the CAF has a VIE (variable initial engagement), to provide that RoE.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 32,129
- Points
- 1,160
If you want a sneak preview into what conscription might be like, forcing people to do something (by law) against their will that deeply impacts them personally, think back to how those COVID -19 vaccine mandates worked out .... then times it by 100
To be fair, the vast majority of the population went along with the mandates. Canada had some of the highest rates of vaccination in the world. The few that were troublesome were really so.
I think it also depends on how national service obligations are constructed. How long is it? Are there options beyond military service? Are skills taught transferable? What do they get in return? Etc.
Similar threads
