Attempted assassination of Donald Trump 13 July 2024

[OldSolduer]

When gangs and common thugs arm themselves with automatic weapons ILLEGALLY obtained, body armor, and hire people to train them how are the police supposed to react? By asking them nicely to turn in their illegal weapons?

When the judicial system is serious about incarcerating those who use ILLEGAL firearms to commit crimes then MAYBE we can talk about "militarization" of the police.

 

[brihard]

Any thoughts on Sen. Hawley's allegations that a number of the USSS agents protecting Trump were not actual USSS agents? (As fascinating as the off topic stuff about police kit is....)

That’s not what he’s alleging. He’s alleging that some of the police there were not USSS, but instead were Homeland Security Investigations officers drawn from field offices to bolster site security.

No shit.

Hawley’s basically just exposing his ignorance about how protective security at large events happens. There’s a very finite number of officers specifically trained in close protections, and almost universally all that’s needed at such events is a lot of police presence. Investigative officers will get told to throw a suit and their gun on and provide site security. That’s utterly normal. In the various videos of things going sideways in Butler you see a number of them, including several who help escort Trump from the dais to his truck, and some of whom get in a support vehicle to help provide security when he arrived at hospital.

The president himself could be at an event with his full USSS security package, and outside of his immediate vicinity there would be various federal officers and local police all over the site who aren’t close protection trained and are relying on their normal training to be vigilant and engage threats. Since most federal agents aren’t out on the road dealing with dangerous situations very much, that can look fairly rough. Par for the course though.

 

[Booter]

That’s not what he’s alleging. He’s alleging that some of the police there were not USSS, but instead were Homeland Security Investigations officers drawn from field offices to bolster site security.

No shit.

Hawley’s basically just exposing his ignorance about how protective security at large events happens. There’s a very finite number of officers specifically trained in close protections, and almost universally all that’s needed at such events is a lot of police presence. Investigative officers will get told to throw a suit and their gun on and provide site security. That’s utterly normal. In the various videos of things going sideways in Butler you see a number of them, including several who help escort Trump from the dais to his truck, and some of whom get in a support vehicle to help provide security when he arrived at hospital.

The president himself could be at an event with his full USSS security package, and outside of his immediate vicinity there would be various federal officers and local police all over the site who aren’t close protection trained and are relying on their normal training to be vigilant and engage threats. Since most federal agents aren’t out on the road dealing with dangerous situations very much, that can look fairly rough. Par for the course though.

100%

 

[RangerRay]

Any thoughts on Sen. Hawley's allegations that a number of the USSS agents protecting Trump were not actual USSS agents? (As fascinating as the off topic stuff about police kit is....)

If Hawley said the sky was blue, I’d look outside. He is well known for throwing “boob bait for the bubbas” to get the outrage bus going. Given is extremely elite education, he knows better. He is not a good-faith actor.

 

[Halifax Tar]

My big hang up is mindset that goes with the kit and camo. Far too many cops seem to view the public in an adversarial fashion lately, at least in my interactions with friends and peers in the unit who are cops. You work for the public, not against them.

Maybe I'm being a little uncharitable because WPS wastes a shit ton of my taxes but that's neither here nor there haha.

Far be it from me to defend our LEOs and their organizations, my interactions haven't always been great, with some exceptions of late.

But It strikes me the public also has equal blame in this. The police didn't spontaneously just up and militarize one day, it was in response to something.

 

[Maxman1]

Have you had an opportunity to figure out what the risk is of my wearing appropriate PPE in appropriate situations?

Last I checked, plate carriers are available in blue and black, with "POLICE" on the front.

 

[KevinB]

Last I checked, plate carriers are available in blue and black, with "POLICE" on the front.

Yes, but are those vests practical?
Camouflage for tactical units has come out of the fact that a lot of LE Blue or Black stands out in some environments. If you have a rural team, it’s going to be a large target marker against woods or fields - and yes LEO’s have been shot when seen when out looking for bad guys.

Having done both Black and OD uniforms for Tac, if you are out in an open desert - they really stand out, where things like Multi-Cam offer a lot more protection due to blending better. It’s not fun when a subject armed with a rifle is shooting at you and you know (as he’s landing shots really F’ing close to you) that he can see you like your wearing a traffic vest. Having a practical uniform in a relevant camouflage pattern makes sense from an officer safety standpoint— the same uniform doesn’t necessarily make sense for Patrol usage.

Another aspect of “spillover” occurs from the fact that .Mil gear is generally better than most LE gear are far at Tactical Gear goes. SOF units spend a lot more money on “high speed gear” so it’s lighter, more durable etc - so for a lot of Tactical Teams it is a practical option.

NVG’s and Lasers, for those who think that is Militarization, do you really want officers out at night with no effective means of searching or targeting a threat?

Sound Suppressors - they are really a liability reduction tool now, to due to hearing loss of both officers and bystanders.

 

[Maxman1]

Yes, but are those vests practical?
Camouflage for tactical units has come out of the fact that a lot of LE Blue or Black stands out in some environments. If you have a rural team, it’s going to be a large target marker against woods or fields - and yes LEO’s have been shot when seen when out looking for bad guys.

Having done both Black and OD uniforms for Tac, if you are out in an open desert - they really stand out, where things like Multi-Cam offer a lot more protection due to blending better. It’s not fun when a subject armed with a rifle is shooting at you and you know (as he’s landing shots really F’ing close to you) that he can see you like your wearing a traffic vest. Having a practical uniform in a relevant camouflage pattern makes sense from an officer safety standpoint— the same uniform doesn’t necessarily make sense for Patrol usage.

Another aspect of “spillover” occurs from the fact that .Mil gear is generally better than most LE gear are far at Tactical Gear goes. SOF units spend a lot more money on “high speed gear” so it’s lighter, more durable etc - so for a lot of Tactical Teams it is a practical option.

NVG’s and Lasers, for those who think that is Militarization, do you really want officers out at night with no effective means of searching or targeting a threat?

Sound Suppressors - they are really a liability reduction tool now, to due to hearing loss of both officers and bystanders.

I was thinking mostly for patrol usage. With Tactical team, "situation will dictate" seems to be the best answer. What works for LAPD probably won't be right in, say, Billings, Montana and vice versa.

 

[Booter]

Last I checked, plate carriers are available in blue and black, with "POLICE" on the front.

What general duty police officer in Canada attending calls doesn’t have a blue or black carrier? There are a few olive green agencies- forestry, conservation, and Quebec based- but they are outliers.

 

[brihard]

Last I checked, plate carriers are available in blue and black, with "POLICE" on the front.

And that’s exactly what’s in the trunk of his car. @RedFive has told us he’s RCMP; any time I’ve seen photos of their members in the news wearing hard plates they’re in a blue carrier that they throw on over their normal patrol uniform. Do you see some issue with that?

 

[Jarnhamar]

I’ve yet to be able to buy any equipment because it made anyone look like a badass. In fact every piece of kit I pursue I have to demonstrate a need for it versus the public perception. And I am involved in a lot of purchases.

Thats awesome. It doesn't seem to be a huge issue here. I've seen some people complain that police have armored vehicles but I'm all for protection and extraction- especially since I think civilians should have access to high power firearms. Likewise for police having high quality PPE.

 

[Maxman1]

Do you see some issue with that?

I never said anything of the sort.

 

[brihard]

I never said anything of the sort.

Great. Your early reply to @RedFive made it seem like, at a minimum, you weren’t aware that the patrol members in his organization had those.

 

[lenaitch]

Yes, but are those vests practical?
Camouflage for tactical units has come out of the fact that a lot of LE Blue or Black stands out in some environments. If you have a rural team, it’s going to be a large target marker against woods or fields - and yes LEO’s have been shot when seen when out looking for bad guys.

Having done both Black and OD uniforms for Tac, if you are out in an open desert - they really stand out, where things like Multi-Cam offer a lot more protection due to blending better. It’s not fun when a subject armed with a rifle is shooting at you and you know (as he’s landing shots really F’ing close to you) that he can see you like your wearing a traffic vest. Having a practical uniform in a relevant camouflage pattern makes sense from an officer safety standpoint— the same uniform doesn’t necessarily make sense for Patrol usage.

Another aspect of “spillover” occurs from the fact that .Mil gear is generally better than most LE gear are far at Tactical Gear goes. SOF units spend a lot more money on “high speed gear” so it’s lighter, more durable etc - so for a lot of Tactical Teams it is a practical option.

NVG’s and Lasers, for those who think that is Militarization, do you really want officers out at night with no effective means of searching or targeting a threat?

Sound Suppressors - they are really a liability reduction tool now, to due to hearing loss of both officers and bystanders.

That was exactly what took my former service from light to dark blue (some call it black) shirts. One of our members was shot and killed by a guy who ran into the bush (from where he also wounded another responding member). When the finally got the guy, he said that the light blue stood out. When they later commissioned some testing, they determined that light blue is a very uncommon colour in nature (unless, I suppose, if you are a Hydrangea). I suppose no one colour will work equally well in the bush and in town. I would have voted for a shade of green, but the Conservation Officers had that and, besides, they didn't ask.

My big hang up is mindset that goes with the kit and camo. Far too many cops seem to view the public in an adversarial fashion lately, at least in my interactions with friends and peers in the unit who are cops. You work for the public, not against them.

I'll admit I worked with guys like that but only a small handful in 30+ years.

 

[Haggis]

What general duty police officer in Canada attending calls doesn’t have a blue or black carrier? There are a few olive green agencies- forestry, conservation, and Quebec based- but they are outliers.

There were lots of accusations during the clearing operation of the truckers in Ottawa that the green clad SQ public order units were actually military.

 

[brihard]

There were lots of accusations during the clearing operation of the truckers in Ottawa that the green clad SQ public order units were actually military.

Ok but that was actually kinda funny. That was the Sureté du Québec public order unit wearing OD green. I remember being grateful when they relieved us in place after a few really hard hours on the Saturday. Anyway, yeah, provincial police, and SQ’s uniforms are all green, that’s just their norm. A bunch of the comically dumbest people on the internet thought they were UN soldiers or something like that.

 

[RedFive]

Mods I feel like there's enough of a tangent going here with fruitful discussion for a split, but I'll leave that to you.

A couple thoughts, now there been some more opinion sharing here:

I completely agree patrol officers should not be showing up to routine calls for service in full battle rattle or whatever you want to call it.

I also have worked with some geardos who seem to think hanging all kinds of stupid crap off themselves is a good look. I hate it.

But there's 7 Mounties dead between Mayerthorpe and Moncton that account for the RCMP introducing hard body armour panels and C8's. All I want is a decent quality patrol uniform that's easier to maintain and easier to hide in if I need it (blue shirts and stripeless pants), and the ability to put on good quality PPE if the time comes (and it does regularly, where I work) when we're no longer Constable Do-Good the friendly neighbourhood Mountie, and the expectation of the public becomes we should close with and capture or kill that threat. It happens. More than we let on. Luckily for us, we're pretty good at taking people alive.

The public has been very critical of the RCMP in Nova Scotia's inability to flip that switch.

As far as public vs the police, it has absolutely become contentious. I've been patrol since 2017, and in that time I've seen George Floyd, the Jan 6th Capital incident, the trucker protest, COVID, the Nova Scotia massacre, on and on and on. The public's trust in their institutions, the police included and I would argue specifically, has never been lower.

I now go to calls where even though the person being arrested has tried to fight half the witnesses, they're all toying with obstructing us, filming us, getting in our faces and otherwise being obnoxious. When I started, we would be cheered and applauded as we led the drunk idiot away from the bar for his stupid tax and night in cells. Now? It's perfectly fine to f*** with the Police, it's just sticking it to "the man".

I don't really have an answer for all that, just my observations on the topic from my own experience. I'm not nor will I ever be ERT so I won't touch on them being green or Multicam depending on where they are. But if the public starts making ludicrous demands like wear a clown suit to work, wear no PPE and/or do this job unarmed, I'm out. I've had one foot out the door of this job for a couple years waiting for the breaking point. I've stepped back quite far away from that ledge as things in my own career have developed, but those would all be deal breakers.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Mods I feel like there's enough of a tangent going here with fruitful discussion for a split, but I'll leave that to you.

A couple thoughts, now there been some more opinion sharing here:

I completely agree patrol officers should not be showing up to routine calls for service in full battle rattle or whatever you want to call it.

I also have worked with some geardos who seem to think hanging all kinds of stupid crap off themselves is a good look. I hate it.

But there's 7 Mounties dead between Mayerthorpe and Moncton that account for the RCMP introducing hard body armour panels and C8's. All I want is a decent quality patrol uniform that's easier to maintain and easier to hide in if I need it (blue shirts and stripeless pants), and the ability to put on good quality PPE if the time comes (and it does regularly, where I work) when we're no longer Constable Do-Good the friendly neighbourhood Mountie, and the expectation of the public becomes we should close with and capture or kill that threat. It happens. More than we let on. Luckily for us, we're pretty good at taking people alive.

The public has been very critical of the RCMP in Nova Scotia's inability to flip that switch.

As far as public vs the police, it has absolutely become contentious. I've been patrol since 2017, and in that time I've seen George Floyd, the Jan 6th Capital incident, the trucker protest, COVID, the Nova Scotia massacre, on and on and on. The public's trust in their institutions, the police included and I would argue specifically, has never been lower.

I now go to calls where even though the person being arrested has tried to fight half the witnesses, they're all toying with obstructing us, filming us, getting in our faces and otherwise being obnoxious. When I started, we would be cheered and applauded as we led the drunk idiot away from the bar for his stupid tax and night in cells. Now? It's perfectly fine to f*** with the Police, it's just sticking it to "the man".

I don't really have an answer for all that, just my observations on the topic from my own experience. I'm not nor will I ever be ERT so I won't touch on them being green or Multicam depending on where they are. But if the public starts making ludicrous demands like wear a clown suit to work, wear no PPE and/or do this job unarmed, I'm out. I've had one foot out the door of this job for a couple years waiting for the breaking point. I've stepped back quite far away from that ledge as things in my own career have developed, but those would all be deal breakers.

As a group and organization I'm not a huge fan of police, as I've said before my interactions haven't been great with some exceptions as of late which was nice to see.

But I don't know why anyone would want to be a LEO anymore. It must be a most frustrating and demoralizing job.

Rugby taught me 30 years ago to respect your opposition, and while we aren't opposition I'm obviously not fan, but my hat is off to you and yours. Shit job at a shit time in our culture and society. Respect.

 

[The Bread Guy]

A titch more detail, via Trump's socials, on the medical side (also attached as PDF) ....

Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump)

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