Applying from outside Canada (Merged)

[OscarMike]

Arrogant? Check.
Condescending? Check.
Sense of entitlement? Check.
I believe we know where our funding comes from, but thanks for the education.   
You say that, as a taxpayer, you have no problem with people serving the minimum and getting out.  Well, you're entitled to your opinion (if not much else).  I, As a taxpayer,  hope you never wear a uniform because I prefer my dollar go a long way.

I have lurked on these forums for many years. I am perfectly aware of the attitudes and behaviour of certain posters who like to talk down to potential candidates in a vicious and unnecessary manner which further alienates the military from the eyes of the general public, where it turns them off of military service. Essentially this is a forum for potential candidates to ask questions, not be bagged out. What is the purpose of having such a forum if all you're going to do is bag someone out while being unhelpful?  Not exactly painting the best of picture. I frankly will not have someone insult my knowledge or aspirations simply because they disagree. That's fine, disagree, but it's not going to persuade me away from doing something.

 

[George Wallace]

Love that sardonic humour .

On the contrary, I was more specifically talking about being forced to only enter the pathway, should I want to, in the RMC route instead of the preferred civi uni route.

ROTP is what we are all talking about.  You either want to serve your Country or not.  The Country has no obligations to serve you.  Serving in the CF is not a Right.  Don't expect any sympathy here if you want to abuse the system for your own personal desires.  The majority of CF members of are not of that ilk.

If you are accepted for ROTP, you will go where they tell you.  The same as should you be accepted at any other "Institution of Higher Learning"; you go to their institution, not someone else's.

 

[OscarMike]

The way I understand it, you want to come to Canada and finish your degree. 

This is true. Except I am not jumping for joy at the thought of the massive debt (repayments after 6 months) should I return to finish the degree off in Canada. In my forgein country, the student loan is interest-free and repayments are salary deductions after your salary reaches a significantly high threshold.

If that's the case, the reserves gets you some of the experience you're looking for and spares you ever having to serve in the reg force, thus paving the way for you to serve in the civilian police force more quickly.  There are, in fact, some reserve MP organizations, but I don't know what they require in terms of qualifications for applicants.

Ultimately I would like to serve in the reg force, as either NCM or as an officer, but yeah reserves doesn't sound too bad.

 

[jwtg]

I have lurked on these forums for many years. I am perfectly aware of the attitudes and behaviour of certain posters who like to talk down to potential candidates in a vicious and unnecessary manner which further alienates the military from the eyes of the general public, where it turns them off of military service. Essentially this is a forum for potential candidates to ask questions, not be bagged out. What is the purpose of having such a forum if all you're going to do is bag someone out while being unhelpful?

I was the first person to alert you to the fact that an RMC-only route may be the only offer you ever receive.  I also echoed, and provided additional reasons for, Brihard's idea about the reserves, which really isn't a bad idea.  They also have programs to partially subsidize university education.  Something worth looking into for you, since you've stated you're basically looking for subsidized education.  I think I've been somewhat helpful.

Not exactly painting the best of picture. I frankly will not have someone insult my knowledge or aspirations simply because they disagree. That's fine, disagree, but it's not going to persuade me away from doing something.

But it's okay for you to come on here and insult our knowledge by 'educating' us on the fact that we're pathetic and we don't even know where our funding comes from?  Take a long look in the mirror before you start casting stones.  You'll notice I also never insulted your intelligence.  I identified what I felt were undesirable personality traits that you displayed in your post.

If anything, I insulted your character. 
Please refrain from insulting my intelligence by ignoring the content of my posts and responding like a child who has had their feelings hurt.


EDIT to add: This post went up just before I saw the OP's most recent reply which responded to the content of my previous post, so some credit is due there. 

 

[OscarMike]

I was the first person to alert you to the fact that an RMC-only route may be the only offer you ever receive.  I also echoed, and provided additional reasons for, Brihard's idea about the reserves, which really isn't a bad idea.  They also have programs to partially subsidize university education.  Something worth looking into for you, since you've stated you're basically looking for subsidized education.  I think I've been somewhat helpful.
But it's okay for you to come on here and insult our knowledge by 'educating' us on the fact that we're pathetic and we don't even know where our funding comes from?  Take a long look in the mirror before you start casting stones.  You'll notice I also never insulted your intelligence.  I identified what I felt were undesirable personality traits that you displayed in your post.

If anything, I insulted your character. 
Please refrain from insulting my intelligence by ignoring the content of my posts and responding like a child who has had their feelings hurt.

You are assuming that I was referring to you. The saying is "assumptions make an *** out of you and me". Rather as I recognise you were helpful the defensive content of my responses were directed towards Dimsum and Dimsum alone. Yes, I do think it's acceptable to refute Dimsum and his attitude/opinion which echoes many other posters who, in many people's opinions, shouldn't be serving in the military to begin with because they posses undesirable traits and characteristics.

Thank you for helping.

 

[OscarMike]

ROTP is what we are all talking about.

If you are accepted for ROTP, you will go where they tell you.  The same as should you be accepted at any other "Institution of Higher Learning"; you go to their institution, not someone else's.

That goes without saying, yeah. Still have a discretion to either accept the offer or not accept the offer which I would invoke if I were to only receive RMC.

 

[Loachman]

For anybody who thinks that it is wrong for somebody to serve the minimum time and then leave, it is not. Our system is designed that way. If the intent was to keep people in longer, the obligatory service period would be lengthened to that longer period. A commitment to the current minimum is sufficient. Somebody may join with the intent to serve until CRA and then decide otherwise, or join with the intent to leave upon reaching the end of his/her obligatory service and decide to stay much longer.

That said, the feeling that people are somehow abusing the system by leaving at the end of the minimum time is not uncommon.

 

[JorgSlice]

My apologises I did not want to over-share, hence one of the reasons why I haven't mentioned which foreign country or anything more specific. To give you a greater insight, I'm doing Criminology, Criminal Justice and Psychology. I have picked more specific policing orientated units, rather than redundant superficial units. I can frankly say that I'm not studying for the sake of gaining employment, I have a significant interest in these fields and am actually planning to go up to PhD level.  Prior to switching my majors, I was studying Politics which was horrible... my grades were slipping, I was unmotivated and then when I switched.... a whole new me.

What's wrong with sharing the country you're from? Criminology is the study of why crimes are committed and why people become criminals (in case you didn't know already); it has very little application to a Police Organization. It is only good paired with but not limited to: Forensic or Accounting. Criminologists do things study cases of Criminal Insanity and then "advise" police organizations on how they can better equip their members to handle calls when attending known mental health subjects or to assist officers in detecting symptoms of mental issues in a subject. They study Serious Incident Responses, like when an officer ends up needing to shoot an aggressive subject and then advise police organizations or politicians on their findings which then results in changing the Rules of Engagement, Use of Force Continuum and junk like that. In my opinion, very few Criminology graduates/Criminologists actually work for a Police Service.. Criminal Justice, unless it is specifically Justice Studies of Policing... then a Degree in Criminal Justice will only do you any good if you're going to law school to become a Crown Prosecutor or a Defense Lawyer (Criminal Lawyer).

You may think they're specific, you may think that they'll help you in policing, but... everyone starts out at the bottom in a Police Organization in Canada. You start off as a Beat/Front Line officer equivalent to an NCM MP and nothing can prepare you for the streets; I've learned that the hard way here at the Alberta Solicitor General and Public Security Staff College, I'm on training as an Alberta Sheriff, while I was required to have the Police Foundations Diploma to meet the minimum requirements... I'm regretting spending money on it because it has so far had ZERO use to me even at the "Academy" Well, I loved the program and was worth the money, but as stated: zero applicable use so far, as most of it is taught at Police Academies/Staff Colleges). MPO's are administrators. I think I remember hearing that MPOs do very little real police work, even investigations.

Psychology is okay, depending on what type of psychology you wish to specialize in, it will become useful if you wish to become an Investigator/Detective or a Negotiator.

I cannot see myself enjoying the disciplines offered at RMC other than perhaps military psychology, but from what I have been advised in-general it vastly differs from the psychology I am undertaking right now.

Like I have mentioned I am doing quite excellent in university. Unfortunately, I did not complete high school, as in I dropped out, so I'm not entirely sure if this will hinder me but I suspect it shouldn't upon graduation with a postsecondary degree.

It is unlikely that I will transfer to a frontline policing role in a municipal police force. While I am keeping my options open, I would most likely lateral transfer to one of the federal agencies overseas, as a federal agent, and they prefer relevant related degrees. "Military Leadership" is not a relevant degree to them and I have already approached said agencies to enquire. Yes, they count your postsecondary education on top of your previous law enforcement experience. I'm not entirely sure how the Criminology stream works over in Canada, as I have not attended a Canadian university yet, but the stream here is extremely relevant and is geared towards those who are entering the police force. In fact most of our lecturers taught at the police academy and such forth.

Like I said, unless they have openings for Civilian positions as investigators, forensic technicians.... You'll start out at the bottom of the ladder as a Front Line Officer/Beat Cop and after 3/4 years you'll be given the opportunity to move into specialized units like Homicide, Major Crimes, Financial Crimes, Sex Crimes, Domestic Unit etc.

Correct. To be perfectly upfront, your opinion on my plans for the future does not concern me nor will I factor it into my decision. This may come off as arrogant but I have spoken to other NCMs and officers who tell me there is no reason one shouldn't join just because they have the intention of only serving the minimum. The military is a valued addition to a curriculum vitae and also, arguably, builds better citizens in the forms of discipline and a deontological approach to life.

Besides, no offense, but the military is funded, by you know tax payers, ironically and last time I checked I pay taxes and contribute to the economy in both countries so why should I feel bad about wanting the Canadian Forces to pay for my education in return for service to boost their ranks? They need to get officers somehow. The arrogant attitude about how the military shouldn't fund people who are just going to leave after minimum service is more than pathetic.... seeing as the military serves at the privilege of the tax payers, where if you aren't funded by tax payers you are now out of a job because there's no defense budget to pay your salary or anything else for that matter. Not to mention, the military offers the program to boost their ranks and if they had a problem with people leaving after the minimum service requirements they would remove the program if they saw it as non-beneficial and because the program still exists it presents the notion that it is benefit to the Canadian Forces.

Fair enough, but for most of the members here that have been to corners and have done and seen terrible things during their dedication to Canada, it's insulting that all that is in your mind is to take advantage of your dual-citizenship... expect to get subsidized education, fulfill your Obligatory Service only to flee back to your Overseas lair and become a police officer with disillusioned thoughts of how you're going to get there.

 

[brihard]

Criminology is even more useless to Policing than Police Foundations.

Not what Chief White told us to our faces. His statistics were 10% of police foundations grades get into police forces within a year of graduation; 30% ever (and that includes those who get subsequent additional education). Criminology, conversely, fulfills the 'any sort of degree' requirement, while still being related enough to be of some benefit to a number of other criminal justice professions. Corrections, CBSA,

Police foundations, if you don't get hired as a cop, is almost completely wasted and offers few other options beyond allowing you to enter a mall security job and fit in. If you DO get hired as a cop, Everything of relevance that you learned will be retaught... Once you've hung around Blueline a bit longer though you'll se ethe attitude that cops have toward PF programs. But you of course have taken the additional step of working towards degree completion, which should 'top you up', so it oughtn't hurt you.

It is unlikely that I will transfer to a frontline policing role in a municipal police force. While I am keeping my options open, I would most likely lateral transfer to one of the federal agencies overseas, as a federal agent, and they prefer relevant related degrees. "Military Leadership" is not a relevant degree to them and I have already approached said agencies to enquire. Yes, they count your postsecondary education on top of your previous law enforcement experience. I'm not entirely sure how the Criminology stream works over in Canada, as I have not attended a Canadian university yet, but the stream here is extremely relevant and is geared towards those who are entering the police force. In fact most of our lecturers taught at the police academy and such forth.

So... You want to get the Canadian taxpayer to cover the cost of your education so that you can serve the minimal necessary time in the military as an MP Office.r In that role you won't do much actual policing, you'll mostly be an administrator who won't even be in long enough to get particularly good at much. You somehow think that your university education - which doesn't actually teach how to do much at all, plus some time behind a desk as a junior MPO that can't even lateral you into many municipal forces, will somehow get you a 'federal agent' job back in Britain?

Yeah... Don't hold your breath. MPO is a rather limited trade, and most applicants aren't nearly so mercenary in their intentions. You would be wasting an ROTP spot that could go to someone more deserving who intends to stick around and serve our country for more than the bare minimum they need to not get billed for it.

 

[OscarMike]

For anybody who thinks that it is wrong for somebody to serve the minimum time and then leave, it is not. Our system is designed that way. If the intent was to keep people in longer, the obligatory service period would be lengthened to that longer period. A commitment to the current minimum is sufficient. Somebody may join with the intent to serve until CRA and then decide otherwise, or join with the intent to leave upon reaching the end of his/her obligatory service and decide to stay much longer.

That said, the feeling that people are somehow abusing the system by leaving at the end of the minimum time is not uncommon.

I know over here the military, even has on their website that subsequent periods of service are up to the military to decide along with suitability for future service in the military. I assume it is the same with the Canadian Forces nonetheless?

Also been looking through some threads, RMC is apparently quite competitive to get into... would that mean if you fail to get into RMC but pass everything else in ROTP that you just aren't accepted into the training program instead of being offered civi uni sponsorship?

 

[brihard]

Also been looking through some threads, RMC is apparently quite competitive to get into... would that mean if you fail to get into RMC but pass everything else in ROTP that you just aren't accepted into the training program instead of being offered civi uni sponsorship?

That can happen, absolutely. Or you may be offered one of your alternative trade choices if you've specified any.

If your grades are as you claim, you are probably more likely to not be accepted for MPO ROTP than to not be accepted for RMC. There are very few positions for MPO, and it is not merited on anything close to a strictly academic basis.

 

[OscarMike]

So... You want to get the Canadian taxpayer to cover the cost of your education so that you can serve the minimal necessary time in the military as an MP Officer

We have previously established that, yes.

In that role you won't do much actual policing, you'll mostly be an administrator who won't even be in long enough to get particularly good at much. You somehow think that your university education - which doesn't actually teach how to do much at all, plus some time behind a desk as a junior MPO that can't even lateral you into many municipal forces, will somehow get you a 'federal agent' job back in Britain?

ROTP would, in my opinion based upon the information I have from Canadian universities on international transfer credits, most likely take up 4 year.s That means 8 years of subsequent service afterwards. I'm not "across the pond" nor am I in Britain.

Yeah... Don't hold your breath. MPO is a rather limited trade, and most applicants aren't nearly so mercenary in their intentions. You would be wasting an ROTP spot that could go to someone more deserving who intends to stick around and serve our country for more than the bare minimum they need to not get billed for it.

That is your opinion.

 

[OscarMike]

If your grades are as you claim, you are probably more likely to not be accepted for MPO ROTP than to not be accepted for RMC. There are very few positions for MPO, and it is not merited on anything close to a strictly academic basis.

Oh that I understand. I have relevant employment history, experiences and certifications that should reinforce my academics.

 

[brihard]

We have previously established that, yes.

At least you're up front about what you are.

ROTP would, in my opinion based upon the information I have from Canadian universities on international transfer credits, most likely take up 4 year.s That means 8 years of subsequent service afterwards. I'm not "across the pond" nor am I in Britain.

Your research has not served you well, as your calculations are incorrect. Anyway, where you are specifically really doesn't matter a great deal.

That is your opinion.

My statement about MPO being very limited for ROTP entry is not an 'opinion'. I am privy to the numbers that MPO takes from the various entry plans. It is not many under any of them. The rest of it - my opinion - is rather qualified professional one. I as an NCO would not wish that I or my troops be subjected to your command based on what you've told us thus far about your ethic of service to Canada and your intend to milk what you can and then bugger off- you can determine what that opinion is worth, if anything. And I say that coolly and objectively.

 

[OscarMike]

What's wrong with sharing the country you're from? Criminology is the study of why crimes are committed and why people become criminals (in case you didn't know already); it has very little application to a Police Organization. It is only good paired with but not limited to: Forensic or Accounting. Criminologists do things study cases of Criminal Insanity and then "advise" police organizations on how they can better equip their members to handle calls when attending known mental health subjects or to assist officers in detecting symptoms of mental issues in a subject. They study Serious Incident Responses, like when an officer ends up needing to shoot an aggressive subject and then advise police organizations or politicians on their findings which then results in changing the Rules of Engagement, Use of Force Continuum and junk like that. In my opinion, very few Criminology graduates/Criminologists actually work for a Police Service.. Criminal Justice, unless it is specifically Justice Studies of Policing... then a Degree in Criminal Justice will only do you any good if you're going to law school to become a Crown Prosecutor or a Defense Lawyer (Criminal Lawyer).

Both Criminology and Criminal Justice here are designed and orientated towards policing. Only the first year subjects are "why crimes are committed and why people become criminology". The rest focuses on the application of the two into the real world such as "tactical crime analysis", "criminal law" and "Investigation Methods & Techniques" etc. in both introductory and advanced.

I have not known generic criminologists to study cases of criminal insanity nor is that even apart of my major. Rather forensic psychologists and forensic  criminologists do what you have described. 

 

[JorgSlice]

Not what Chief White told us to our faces. His statistics were 10% of police foundations grades get into police forces within a year of graduation; 30% ever (and that includes those who get subsequent additional education). Criminology, conversely, fulfills the 'any sort of degree' requirement, while still being related enough to be of some benefit to a number of other criminal justice professions. Corrections, CBSA,

Police foundations, if you don't get hired as a cop, is almost completely wasted and offers few other options beyond allowing you to enter a mall security job and fit in. If you DO get hired as a cop, Everything of relevance that you learned will be retaught... Once you've hung around Blueline a bit longer though you'll se ethe attitude that cops have toward PF programs. But you of course have taken the additional step of working towards degree completion, which should 'top you up', so it oughtn't hurt you.

The only reason I did a PF was because it was more affordable for me at the time.

I was given some very great advice from my Training Officer during my Work Placement Module with Delta Police, to take another Diploma or Certificate Program - I've selected an Accounting Diploma and a Forensic Studies certificate that is a online self-paced delivery (which I'm starting in September after I complete DP1 and DP2 over the summer). While I don't particularly fancy working in Financial Crimes if I were in a standard Police Service, it gives me breadth. I'm a Front Line/Beat Type person so I'll be happy with anything. My new employer has been very supportive and empowering of everything.

P.S. I read through Blueline a couple years ago... I refuse to register there. 

We have previously established that, yes.

ROTP would, in my opinion based upon the information I have from Canadian universities on international transfer credits, most likely take up 4 year.s That means 8 years of subsequent service afterwards. I'm not "across the pond" nor am I in Britain.


That is your opinion.

You just stated you're permanently residing and studying overseas, outside of North America. Which either means "Across the Pond" meaning Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia... or even South America.

So what is it? Are you overseas, with dual citizenship, or are you just making up stories that now have obvious holes?

 

[OscarMike]

At least you're up front about what you are.

Your research has not served you well, as your calculations are incorrect. Anyway, where you are specifically really doesn't matter a great deal.

My statement about MPO being very limited for ROTP entry is not an 'opinion'. I am privy to the numbers that MPO takes from the various entry plans. It is not many under any of them. The rest of it - my opinion - is rather qualified professional one. I as an NCO would not wish that I or my troops be subjected to your command based on what you've told us thus far about your ethic of service to Canada and your intend to milk what you can and then bugger off- you can determine what that opinion is worth, if anything. And I say that coolly and objectively.

Funny enough, in my country they cannot enlist or retain enough MPs (Officers or NCMs) where they are so desperate that they've only put a year as minimum service requirement. Fancy that, spend $10,000 training someone for them to be eligible to resign a year later. Before you question why I'm not going MPs over here, they're not exactly police officers nor conduct policing... they're concluded as being a bit of a joke. Unarmed, powerless and all. Also cannot lateral transfer.

From my research, an undergraduate degree is 4 years. For every month of sponsorship, you need to give two back. 4 x 2 is 8, yes?

 

[OscarMike]

You just stated you're permanently residing and studying overseas, outside of North America. Which either means "Across the Pond" meaning Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia... or even South America.

So what is it? Are you overseas, with dual citizenship, or are you just making up stories that now have obvious holes?

Across the pond is associated with the Atlantic Ocean and the United Kingdom. Feel free to make a "Today I learned" post about it on Reddit.
http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/across+the+pond.html

It does not include Europe, Asia, South America, Oceania or anywhere else.

 

[JorgSlice]

Across the pond is associated with the Atlantic Ocean and the United Kingdom. Feel free to make a "Today I learned" post about it on Reddit.
http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/across+the+pond.html

There's more than one "pond" in the world. I don't need your condescension. You understood what I meant.

Usage notes
The phrase usually implies the North Atlantic Ocean between North America and Europe, and is most often used to describe travel between the United Kingdom and the United States or Canada.

Europe is many, many countries, not just UK. Because it is an "implication" it does not limit the phrase to just USA/Canada to UK travel and vice versa, although it is the common usage. I've heard people use it when talking about travelling to Asia and Australia as well.

Why not just say where you're from? You obviously have a lot to hide.

Both Criminology and Criminal Justice here are designed and orientated towards policing. Only the first year subjects are "why crimes are committed and why people become criminology". The rest focuses on the application of the two into the real world such as "tactical crime analysis", "criminal law" and "Investigation Methods & Techniques" etc. in both introductory and advanced.

I have not known generic criminologists to study cases of criminal insanity nor is that even apart of my major. Rather forensic psychologists and forensic  criminologists do what you have described.

Well they do that as well. Criminologists are "critics" and "advisers" for the most part. Forensic Psychologists and Forensic Criminologist play a whole other role, but still in similar fashion. They often give statements in Court, either for or against Crown Prosecutors or Defense Lawyers; but majority work for independent investigation organizations in Canada, not police services. You said you do not understand how things work in Canada (despite having dual-citizenship), and so I am giving you what I've observed, that is all.

My Police Foundations class had a Criminology grad come in to do a presentation on Criminology. She works for the RCMP Police Complaints Commission and studies the types of complaints, number of complaints, how those people are related to police incidences etc. etc. and then makes reports to the RCMP about how they can improve their Policing Methods. She's also been pushing her reports to politicians to out Officers, making an attempt to somehow legislate change on how Police operate in Canada. I won't go into my opinion on her, but many of us asked her how just a plain Criminology degree would help a Police Officer's career... She couldn't provide an answer herself except to say "Well, you can also major in Economics and go into White Collar crimes for example."

I like Criminology as well, and love studying it... but not enough to spend money on it if it's not going to do me any real assistance anywhere... but that's just my opinion.

Edit: Corrected some spelling and grammar... I'm enjoying this Shiraz too much

 

[jwtg]

Funny enough, in my country they cannot enlist or retain enough MPs (Officers or NCMs) where they are so desperate that they've only put a year as minimum service requirement. Fancy that, spend $10,000 training someone for them to be eligible to resign a year later. Before you question why I'm not going MPs over here, they're not exactly police officers nor conduct policing... they're concluded as being a bit of a joke. Unarmed, powerless and all. Also cannot lateral transfer.

From my research, an undergraduate degree is 4 years. For every month of sponsorship, you need to give two back. 4 x 2 is 8, yes?

MPs, to my knowledge, are badged & recognized peace officers under the criminal code, and they do 'policing' to the extent that it is required in the CF community, as well as police work and far more in operational zones.  MPOs, to my knowledge, are NOT badged peace officers.  They are not as readily eligible for lateral transfer as their NCM counterparts.

Also, your math is wrong.  It's 2 months per month of subsidized education; your summer training is not subsidized education, it is military training.  Obligatory service typically ends up being approximately 5 years, although it can very from trade to trade based on training periods (ie. pilot).

Also, if you're currently studying at a university, why would it take you a whole 4 years for an undergrad here?  I don't know much about international education recognition, but, unless you have done very little studying, I would imagine you'd be able to knock a bit of time off your degree here, no?  Hard to say because of how vague you're being about your situation, but that's fine by me.