Alternate for the CIC

[c.jacob]

  I agree with most of you who would like more training and standards for CIC.  But from what I have seen the officers themselves are not at fault.  I do respect what they do and most of them take advantage of what is available to them.  As well I find that many of them are very good and it's just a certain few that are giving them the bad name.  After all, like some of you have said many of them are ex-army.  I think maybe it would be a good idea to open up some reg or Pres. force training for CIC such as a reg force JOLC or even an MOC into Infantry or Armoured corps etc.  Now I know this opens up the argument that it has nothing to do with teaching cadets but if you're complaining that the CIC isn't military enough then what other options are there.

Just a though  :

 

[chair_borne]

The CIC is very much a reflection of the Canadian Forces in general. Both bureaucratic, out of shape, officer heavy, politically correct and in general poorly equipped. This sad situation breeds a mad scramble to assert a backhanded claim to 'professionalism' by calling down other units, regiments, Cadres, etc. Extremely bad form for an officer and gentleman, by the way. Once upon a time when there was an Army (before the unification fiasco years of the 1970s and onwards for quite some time), the Royal Canadian Army Cadets ("CCM" was a bicycle brand name) were under the mandate of the Canadian Army and the badged cadet was considered reflective of the corps or regiment he was affiliated to. So, any self respecting Militia (Reserve) or Regular force unit made darn sure that "their" cadets had training, a place to meet, ranges, field exercises, etc. that befitted a 'soldierly' unit. The cadet instructors of the time were very often ex military men, aged out officers, and a goodly number of school teachers as members of the CSofC (who were encouraged to wear the sponsoring regiment's badge & accoutrements). These Cadet Instructors were welcomed into the officers' mess and felt as part of the regiment-what a great way to learn appropriate roles, manners, make training connections, etc, to enhance themselves and the unit's cadets. The Army no longer directly controls cadets, rather, i believe it is the Directorate of Cadets or some type of bureacracy versus the ARMY. This has placed today's Cadet Instructors of all types in a very interesting situation: you are expected by everyone to deliver a military program but it has to be warm and fuzzy, politically proper, and without significant military hardware,without regular force or reserve force members guiding or helping, without proper facilities, and in spite of enormous paperwork inefficiencies.
So all you weekend warriors, reserve NCOs (oops, NCMs) who quite frankly are often under trained and out of shape themselves, step up to the job of instructing young citizens under the difficult conditions mentioned. Frankly, you probably cannot do it. You aren't trained for it-just like the CIC officer isn't trained to be a craftsmen, sapper or rifleman.
If Canada wants a CIC and an effective cadet movement, imbed them both with the Army (Navy or Air Force). Otherwise we will continue to have a poorly trained CIC and unfit CIC. If you want the CIC to be 'real officers', give them the opportunity to receive the training (but realize that no one wants to pay that bill at presnt).
Finally, over the decades I've noticed that usually the junior NCO and the insecure subaltern had the most to 'gain' by CIC (or CSofC or CIL) bashing. Somehow it covered their own insecurities. Surprisingly it was often the Lieutenant ("leftenant") Colonel or other senior officers that expressed encouragement to the cadet instructor long before the insecure underlings did!
And by the way, no need to salute...the awards via Buck-house, and bits of ribbon from gov't and the jump wings are more than enough...because apparantly I was never worthy of the Queen's Commission.

 

[yoman]

without regular force or reserve force members guiding or helping, without proper facilities, and in spite of enormous paperwork inefficiencies.

You are so wrong there. My unit has reservist helping out all the time. Do we have proper facilities? Have you ever been to a cadet summer training center? Now I don't have the most experience there but I have never heard anybody complain about them. From my experience they are very good.


Piper summed up everything pretty good.

 

[Bean]

Let us not jump too quickly on chair_borne, he does raise some excellent points in the change in culture and approaches in how the cadet system was administered in the past.  We must recognize that the society we live in has changed and the CCM has changed along with it.  Many  of his points are valid and deserve due consideration.

We all know and can agree that certain elements have been beaten to death in this thread, so I'll not raise them again, but there are great disparities from unit to unit on facilities for LHQ training ranging from well equiped, locally sponsored space to literally parading in run down buildings no one else wants.  Its a matter that the leagues and DND have been working long to resolve.  Lets keep an open mind and a wide perspective, else this becomes a flame war and we need another of those like we need an additional hole in the head.

There needs to be a change in the culture of the CIC, I think we can agree on that, and there needs to be some adjustment to how they are viewed in the grander CF structures.  Both will take time, effort, and understanding.  Lets try and make that start here if we can.

 

[armyvern]

Chair_Borne,

I don't know where you're coming from but it's not Gagetown. The cadet Units in these parts are fully supported by both their Parent "Reg Force/Res Force" Units and by this Base in general.

We action many TSRs (technical support requests) on their behalfs providing them with kit and equipment (tentange/toboggans/ranges etc) for thier Corps trg purposes.

And I'd like to point out that although their CIC officers are indeed members of the Reserve Force, the Units around here are also assigned Reg Force Liaison personnel who action their kit/clothing/trg/instruction requirements on their behalfs. Although the CF no longer controls the Cadet Movement, we do indeed support it.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

And chair_borne how about filling out your profile a little more so we can guage a little more what you are basing your opinion and experiences on.

 

[dapaterson]

Actually, CIC officers are members of the PRes, just FYI.

That is incorrect.  The CIC is a seperate sub-component of the Reserve Force, just as the Rangers, Supp Reserve and Primary Reserve are all distinct.

CFAO 2-8 (http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/002-08_e.asp) reads:

6.    Composition.  The Reserve Force is composed of the following sub-components:

    a.  the Primary Reserve;
    b.  the Supplementary List;
    c.  the Cadet Instructors List; and
    d.  the Canadian Rangers.

An important distinction; many benefits are for the PRes and thus not the CIC; additionally, the training is different, as the required skillsets for the CIC are not the same as those of the other sub-components.

The chain of command for CIC officers does generally pass through an Army area HQ (or Navy or Air Force equivalent); that being said, they are restricted from employment outside Cadet units or organisations. 

DAP

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Chairborne might be interested to know that "NCOs" is still current parlance; it identifies a non-commissioned officer, ie corporal, master corporal, or sergeant.  An NCM is a private, corporal, master corporal, sergeant, warrant officer, master warrant officer or chief warrant officer.

Inaccuracies like these, and the general tone of the post, weaken some of the points he/she makes, some of which seem valid on the face of it.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The chain of command for CIC officers does generally pass through an Army area HQ (or Navy or Air Force equivalent); that being said, they are restricted from employment outside Cadet units or organisations. 

That being said, so its unlikely a member of the CIC organization would ever be deployed to some place like Bosnia or Afghanistan. I ask as it was claimed by a member of the CIC that members of the CIC were deployed.

 

[dapaterson]

That being said, so its unlikely a member of the CIC organization would ever be deployed to some place like Bosnia or Afghanistan. I ask as it was claimed by a member of the CIC that members of the CIC were deployed.

There may have been a small number (probably could be counted on one hand) of CIC officers who have deployed, but those have been based on civilian skillsets they hold, not on their CIC experience.  Alternatively, there are some former PRes / Reg F members who become CIC officers later in life; if one of them held military skills required for a mission (and if those skills were still current) they may have been employed.  Again, though, such a deployment would not be based on them being a CIC officer.


CANFORGEN 081/05 explains where CIC officers are to be employed:

CANFORGEN 081/05 VCDS 016 270938Z APR 05
CLARIFICATION ON THE USE OF CADET INSTRUCTOR CADRE (CIC) OFFICERS OUTSIDE THE CANADIAN CADET MOVEMENT
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. DGRC MESSAGE 488 011853Z SEP 98
B. D RES MESSAGE 311 041411Z FEB 04

1. THIS MESSAGE REPLACES REFERENCE B. THE POLICY ON TERMS OF SERVICE FOR CIC OFFICERS HAS BEEN APPLIED INCONSISTENTLY OVER THE YEARS. WITH THE IMPENDING IMPLEMENTATION OF AN OCCUPATIONAL STRUCTURE FOR CIC OFFICERS SOME OF THE ISSUES REGARDING PERMISSIBLE USE OF CIC OFFRS WILL BE RESOLVED. THERE STILL MAY BE SOME AGENCIES OUTSIDE THE CCM WHO UNKNOWINGLY MISUSE MEMBERS OF THE CIC. THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO REITERATE THE POLICY THAT CIC OFFICERS WILL NOT BE USED OUTSIDE THE CCM

2. THE PRIMARY DUTY OF A CIC OFFICER IS THE SAFETY, SUPERVISION, ADMINISTRATION, AND TRAINING OF CADETS. AS DEFINED IN QR&O 2.034(C), THE RAISON D'ETRE OF CIC OFFICERS IS TO BE EXPERTS IN YOUTH LEADERSHIP ON BEHALF OF THE CF

3. THE PURPOSE OF REFERENCE A WAS TO REMIND EMPLOYERS THAT THE CIC HAT BADGE IS NOT BE USED AS A BADGE OF CONVENIENCE TO ALLOW PERSONNEL TO LEAVE THE REGULAR FORCE OR THE PRIMARY RESERVE AT THE AGE OF 55 AND CONTINUE THEIR SERVICE IN THE CF WHILE WEARING THE CIC HAT BADGE AND CONTINUING IN THEIR SAME JOB UNTIL THE AGE OF 65 - THE CRA FOR CIC OFFICERS. THE MESSAGE STATED, IT IS ONLY WHEN HE/SHE IS EMPLOYED IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF CCO ACTIVITIES THAT A CIC OFFICER OR A SUPP RES MEMBER ATTACHED TO THE CIC MAY BE ON ACTIVE SERVICE UNTIL AGE 65. THE MESSAGE WENT ON TO STATE, ACTION ADDRESSES ARE TO TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION TO ENSURE THAT ABUSES OF THIS TYPE CEASE IMMEDIATELY.

4. REFERENCE B WAS ISSUED TO REINFORCE REFERENCE A AND TO END THE INAPPROPRIATE USE OF CIC OFFICERS IN POSITIONS THAT ARE NOT IN SUPPORT OF THE CCM. IN REFERENCE B, DRES STATED, THE AIM OF THIS DIRECTION IS TO MINIMIZE THE NUMBER OF CIC OFFICERS OUTSIDE OF THE CCO ON NON-CADET RELATED ACTIVITIES. EVENTUALLY CIC OFFICERS WILL BE USED ONLY IN CHIEF OF RESERVE AND CADETS DIVISION, CADET UNITS, REGIONAL CADET SUPPORT UNITS OR DETACHMENTS, CADET SUMMER TRAINING CENTERS (CSTCS), GLIDING SCHOOLS, SAIL CENTERS, AS STAFF OFFICERS ON PROJECTS OR IN OTHER STAFF POSITIONS THAT CAN BE DIRECTLY RELATED TO SUPPORT OF CIC OR CADET RELATED ACTIVITIES. CIC OFFICERS WERE REMINDED THAT IF THEY WISHED TO CONTINUE THEIR SERVICE OUTSIDE THE CCM, THEY SHOULD REQUEST A TRANSFER TO THE PRES

5. HENCEFORTH, CIC OFFICERS WILL ONLY BE USED ON CADET-RELATED ACTIVITIES AND ONLY IN THOSE POSITIONS DETAILED IN PARAGRAPH FOUR. NO CIC OFFICER CURRENTLY ON RESERVE SERVICE OUTSIDE THE CCM (OR FORMER CIC OFFICERS WHO ARE CURRENTLY ON THE SUPP RES OR ATTACHED FROM THE SUPP RES) WILL BE EXTENDED BEYOND THE COMPLETION OF HIS OR HER CURRENT ONE YEAR TERM OF SERVICE. QUESTIONS REGARDING PERMISSIBLE EMPLOYMENT ARE TO BE DIRECTED TO THE DRES STAFF AT DGRC. FURTHER, ALL REGIONAL COMMANDERS ARE TO CONDUCT A STAFF CHECK TO CONFIRM THAT ALL CIC OFFICERS ON THEIR ESTABLISHMENTS OCCUPY CIC POSITIONS AND THAT ALL THOSE CIC OFFICERS ARE WORKING IN POSITIONS THAT DIRECTLY SUPPORT THE CCM. YOUR STAFFS ARE TO INFORM BOTH DRES AND DCDTS OF THE RESULT OF THIS STAFF CHECK BY 31 MAY 05.THE RESULT OF THIS STAFF CHECK BE COMPARED WITH EXISTING RPSR DATA TO CONFIRM THE NUMBER OF CIC OFFICERS WHO REMAIN EMPLOYED OUTSIDE THE CCM

 

[chair_borne]

The Cadet movement has interested me for years and I found the comments in this forum very thoughtful for the most. Since years as a cadet mid sixties to CIL years mid 70s-80 and with Army Cadet League around 2000, I cannot help but notice or experience a widening gap been "army" and "cadet".
The 'barbs' and the vainglorious smuggness that I signed of with I would hope reflects a dry irony to some of the puffed up critics of the CIC.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Thank you for the clarification

 

[Deleted member 6930]

That being said, so its unlikely a member of the CIC organization would ever be deployed to some place like Bosnia or Afghanistan. I ask as it was claimed by a member of the CIC that members of the CIC were deployed.

Just to throw my 2 cents worth in...

I agree that it would be extremely unlikely that CIC would be deployed in Bosnia or Afghanistan ... however... that being said,

While I was being interviewed for the CIC, The recruiter asked if I understood that CIC was a component of the reserves and as such, DURING TIMES OF WAR, I may be asked to deploy.  ???

I thought he was kidding. He seemed serious enough when he asked. I asked him if he was joking?

I was told by the recruiter (with a smile) that if the CF required my services as a CIC officer... we were in big ca ca.

Then he said if we ever were asked to assist with a deployment, it would be only to handle paperwork to free up reg force personell.  :

This is what I was told.... did I believe it? Not on your life. I believe he was pulling my leg.

I never felt for a moment that as a CIC officer would I ever be asked to deploy with the regs.

Now ... of all the CIC officers I know in the Maritimes (where I was CIC) not one of them have ever been deployed or assisted.

Only one said that he was asked for an upcoming deployment to Bosnia. He said yes but the "deal fell through" at the last minute. (how convenient). Was he BS-ing me? Probably. He is the type.


Cheers

 

[c.jacob]

I saw it written somewhere that CIC can be deployed if needed but there wasn't alot of detail to it.  I'd imagine it would be as a last resort if all the Primary reserves are deployed and they might need extra training.  If anyone has a link to anything like this it would be useful.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Jacob,

From para 5 of the CANFORGEN, one page back:

HENCEFORTH, CIC OFFICERS WILL ONLY BE USED ON CADET-RELATED ACTIVITIES AND ONLY IN THOSE POSITIONS DETAILED IN PARAGRAPH FOUR.

Go back and read the whole thing.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The 'barbs' and the vainglorious smuggness that I signed of with I would hope reflects a dry irony to some of the puffed up critics of the CIC.

A rather inglorious start and an unviable excuse, is what it is. Your Reserve bashing and other swipes are not welcome. Go back and read the Guidelines, you obviously didn't grasp them the first time. Continuing behaviour of this sort won't be tolerated. Filling out your profile, to back up your so called experience wouldn't hurt either. Right now you come off as nothing more than an uninformed pompous prig. You may wish to change that view.

 

[Kaziklu]

Most CIC officers which to join to help the Kids and I would hope most don't care about any rank they hold.

CIC Officers are trained to operate a Cadet corps or Squadron and act as a recruiting and or PR tool for the Canadian Forces. They do this job for very little pay, and are often times in many communities the only time residence see a member of the Canadian Forces first hand in their Community. They spend months if not years waiting to be able to help the Kids, And for the first few years most likely get their pay from time spent doing training, to better help the Cadets. The Fitness level is lower in most officers, as they are often officer workers and the such that one day week and one weekend a month.. plus a few extra days here and there for meetings, and other activities. A CIC officers job is to represent DND to the Cadets, they promote citizenship, act as role models, and in theory generate interest in the Canadian forces, which is usually the case.

The Problem with the CIC isn't the training the receive, it's the hoops they have to go through in order to do what it is they are joining to do. A CIC officer requires to wait no less then 46 days but more accurately 3-6 months to actually be able to work with the Kids they are joining to help. This whole process turns alot of people away, you then have to deal with internal politics, politics between various groups inside the CCM, and general crap that is to be expected. All to support the Cadet Movement.

I personally don't care if I hold a rank at all. However if the gov't has deemed that the contribution of the CIC is worth of a commission, and a uniform, should not members of the Reserve and Primary forces at least pay them the respect of the rank and position they hold? A desk officer, a Doctor, a lawyer or even a Chaplin all are non combat commissions, and start with signing bonuses, increased pay and starting Ranks of Capitan. A Chaplin requires the same fitness and medical level as a CIC officer. And a CIC Officer in theory does need to meet certain physical standards. (though not in practice) There is little chance of them bing used in a Combat situation.. but you know funny thing, not all deployments are combat. CIC officers are teachers, office workers, police officers, nurses, doctors, delivery drivers, university students, etc. some of these Jobs can be handy in various deployments, heck some of these jobs would entitle them to join the Military at higher rank and pay full time if they wished some couldn't serve at all.

Some do get a bit of a big head when on base, particularly at summer camps when they temporarily full time employee's of the Forces. Should they... no... however they still hold a commission and they do deserve respect for the rank they hold and the job they do.. just like a an Admin Officer or a Chaplain. Just because they aren't combat trained doesn't mean they are undertrained to do theirjob.  How many people on this board feel that because a Chaplain who starts at the rank of Captain (Lt(N)) and receive no combat training, does not deserve respect of the rank they hold?

(it's not an exact parallel but it's close)
There are 4,000 officer in the CIC, it most likely about fewer then 10% of them take the rank they hold overly seriously. But it doesn't mean that a Reg Force or Reservist shouldn't pay proper respect to them when a position would require it.. particularly with Cadets are around.
Should the CIC Officer get out of hand, make a complaint like you would with any other situation.

 

[chair_borne]

Piper is right about me sounding as a pompous prig. As tasteless as it is, I hope that it illustrates that criticism of trade/job description, capabilities or slagging whatever-status can be a two way (deadend)street. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

chair_borne,

I hope you realize that such demonstrations are not considered in good form to "make a point" at army.ca. If you had reviewed this complete thread I believe you would have found a number of points where staff or other senior posters had advised that simple slagging of any groups was unwelcome and in poor form.

You infer that you have some background experience which might support offering credible contribution to this site. To that end, you will find that posters' credibility and the value of their posts relies heavily on their professional approach to discussion and the quality and tone of their posts. Also, the value of filling in the profile should not be under-estimated for new members wishing to establish themselves as useful contributors.

Unfortunately, your first post was a poor start. I think you will find that to be so in comparison to the level of quality we try to achive here and do our best to maintain through a fairly agressive approach to Moderation.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to consult any of the staff, or the owner, Mike Bobbitt. You will also find the Conduct Guidelines a worthwhile read.

thank you.

 

[Sloaner]

Thank you Michael for your post. 

Chair_borne, as a long standing CIC member I appreciate the perspective you bring , and understand the frustrations you are expressing, but there has to be a beter way to resolve the situation.  If you have been working with the league, perhaps that is the best place to exhert influence to help resolve this situation (as a CIC officer I'd appreciate the support). 

As for others, including my colleague Kaziklu, we are here to help the cadets on an individual and global basis.  Those who have been deployed have been so based oncivillian experience and we should recognize their non-uniformed contributions.  As for individual fitness, we expect army cadets to maintain and assess on a fitnesss standard anually . why not the officers who lead them.  I agree that for most of us its not about the rank we hold, but at the same time, the PRes folks here have a valid point about the rampant fast tracking of some officers to higher ranks. If the system works it should take several years of time in and on the job training before an officer is made a lieutenant or captain, but I have known far too many who have gotten there in 2 -3 years.  This is not in our best interest, or that of the CF.

I must disagree though that we don't take our rank seriously.  If we are officers of the CF then we MUST take these ranks and appointments very seriously.  As officers of the CF we have an image and culture to abide by, and as you stated often are the sole representatives of the CF in our communities.  If we don't take our positions, ranks, and image seriously, then why do we exist.

We cannot compare ourselves with the chaplaincy, doctors or other non-combat arms trades because we are not called to the same level of duty.  We serve our country by assisting in the development of children to be the capable leaders and citizens of tomorrow.  We should not look to compare with any other trade because we do not compare with any other trade in the CF.  We lead youth, relish in that you have the opportunity to influence their choices and be a positive influence on how they lead their lives.  There is no point arguing how we compare to the CA trades or the CSS trades because we do not.  While many of our civilian skills are portable, unitl the CF sees fit to employ us (most likely as civilians) based on these skills we are no different than the public at large beyond our ability to undersatnd the culture and lanuage of the CF a little more easily.

Lets be honest about what we do, and proud of the same.  I train kids to be better citizens and I hope I can help them make good decisions for their future wheter that be in the CF or not, and I'm honoured to do it.  'Nuff said.