Alternate for the CIC

[CrashBear]

Well said padre.

For the better part of 32 years I have seen this arguement and whizzing contest about who is who in the pecking order, and quite frankly and growing weary by it.   All personnel enrolled in the CAF are soldiers, sailors and airmen. Some in the direct roles of combat arms others in the duties as have been assigned to them by their superior officers.   I personnal look at the CIC officers as assigned into the benevolant role of a soldier and required to be a mentor to the youth of the nation.   Does that make the CIC Officer any less a soldier than others I think not.

I like to think of the words of General George C. Marshall's definition of a soldier.

Quote: What is a soldier?
"The soldier is a man; he expects to be treated as an adult, not a schoolboy. He has rights; they must be made known to him and thereafter respected. He has ambition; it must be stirred. He has a belief in fair play; it must be honored. He has a need of comradeship; it must be supplied. He has imagination; it must be stimulated. He has a sense of personal dignity; it must be sustained. He has pride; it can be satisfied and made the bedrock of character once he has been assured that he is playing a useful and respected role. To give a man this is the acme of inspired leadership. He has become loyal because loyalty was given to him."

As a CIC Officer I do include myself under the definition of a mentor. As a mentor I am fulfilling my duties as a Officer in the CAF and am making a difference in the lives of the young people who will some day pick up the mantle of leadership in the ongoing development of our country.   An excellent poem was written about being a mentor and a Quote;

The Difference
There were two airmen who didn't know what to do
They came into the Air Force and were proud to wear the blue
Quickly they realized they didn't know it all
And soon they must learn or they would fall

But who was to teach them how to go?
Where were they to go in order to grow?
Around them they looked and what did they see?

One found a mentor the other one was left himself to be
The one with the mentor seized the day
He learned quickly and found experience does pay
The protégé' listened and the mentor taught him a lot
And through his successes he never forgot

The second who had to go it alone
Did his best but felt forlorn
He did what he could and learned as he went
But in the end he was totally spent

Now the protégé is a mentor, too
His successes and lessons are not few
He shares what he knows and learns from the young
And praises for his mentor are sung

So now the Air Force has only one wearing the blue
But it should have been two
With experiences and happiness in their heart
Because someone cared about them from the start

Penny Bailey, Lt Col, USAF. 1 Nov 2002.

There is more to being a soldier than picking up arms and taking of lives. One of the soldiers worst nightmares is the day that he has to do what he is being paid for.

 

[Steve031]

In no way was I attacking the CIC, I was simply stating the way alot of soldiers feel about the situation.  As far as the CIC being soldiers, that's a stretch.  I could find a definitioin in the dictionary, I doubt it would classify a youth leader as a soldier.

As far as the chaplain's branch, I'd say your role is fairly similar to that of the medical branch.  You're a non-combatant but the reason for your existence within the military structure is to serve to the spiritual needs of other soldiers in order to allow them to continue their job (ie. killing people during war time).  Now we don't go to war very often, and your job isn't to justify immoral actions, but your job is basically to help soldiers deal with the moral ramifications of taking life.

 

[Neill McKay]

In no way was I attacking the CIC, I was simply stating the way alot of soldiers feel about the situation.   As far as the CIC being soldiers, that's a stretch.   I could find a definitioin in the dictionary, I doubt it would classify a youth leader as a soldier.

I think you'd have similar trouble finding a dictionary that describes psychologists, musicians, social workers, and public affairs workers as soldiers, yet there are hundreds of such people in the CF.  Do you dispute their legitimacy as soldiers (or sailors or airmen) as well?

 

[Trinity]

Now we don't go to war very often, and your job isn't to justify immoral actions, but your job is basically to help soldiers deal with the moral ramifications of taking life.

No.. its not.  I've explained this to you.  I will now show you the manual.

This is the second time you have "generalized" my trade and summed it up to supporting troops so that they can kill.

DOCTRINE OF CHAPLAINS IN COMBAT

10. The doctrine of chaplains in combat flows from their calling as servants of God, and care-givers to Humanity. Whether in word and sacrament or prayer and witness, Chaplains are endorsed spiritual leaders who:

a. Nurture the Living:

i. Chaplains should pursue opportunities for exercising a ministry of presence and spiritual friendship with and amongst the soldiers, NCM's and officers, even on the battlefield.

ii. Chaplains should seize opportunities for formal and informal worship with due regard to the tactical setting and local security.

iii. Chaplains should exploit opportunities for padres hours, religious instruction, study and pastoral counselling during breaks in the action in formal and informal settings.

b. Care for the Wounded:

i. Chaplains by their very presence among the wounded and dying bear peace and assurance of care.

ii. Chaplains should maintain appropriate spiritual resources and prayers for those of various faith groups.

iii. Chaplains, while cooperating with medical personnel, should be proactive in offering prayers and sacramental ministry to the wounded and dying.

c. Honor the Dead:

i. Commendation of the Dying or Last Rites should always be offered. It provides a peaceful release to both the dying and those who have laboured to save their life.

ii. Chaplains shall ensure that appropriate funeral arrangements are made whether in theatre or at home.

iii. When there is a break in action, appropriate Remembrance Services will be held for the dead.

d. Protect Civilians and Prisoners of War:

i. Chaplains, as advisers on moral and ethical issues, are to ensure that the rights and privileges of civilians and prisoners of war are not overlooked.

ii. Chaplains shall be knowledgeable of The Geneva Accord and Provisions for treatment of civilians and prisoners of war. (See Chapter 9.)

iii. Chaplains may engage in humanitarian assistance as authorized by the chain of command, and as battle rhythm permits. (See Chapter 4)

That is my previous post explained in more detail. 


Now.  As for the CIC.

I would suggest your definition of soldier may be the key to solving your answer.
Many manuals I am reading state "Soldiers, NCMs and Officers"

Not that I would agree with that statement but you may wish to rethink your definition
that would include medics/chaplains but exclude CIC. 

In the end, we're arguing opinions.  And on the internet, opnion without
fact to back it up... is worth nothing.

(BTW.. my official stance is CIC are PRES, therefore soldiers)

 

[CrashBear]

I am really going to open up a can of worms here.  Those employed in the CAF who are not full time regular force personnel are classified as reservists.  The Reserves broken into 4 sub components, 1 the Primary Reserve, 2 the CIC, 3 the Rangers and finally 4 the SHR. None are subservient to the other and all report to the same boss in the end.  As proof of what I speak is to get you to got to the following website . www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=396

That should settle the argument about who is in the reserves and who is a sub component as we all are.  Any doubt that CIC Officers are not legitimate can be clearly addressed in OR&O's.

You folks who are in this thread who pose as PRes should realize through your training what is a Primary Duty and a Secondary Duty. You may not like being a sub component of the reserves and think that you may be a higher form of being, but when it is all said and done we are all members and proudly so of the CAF doing our duty.

 

[McG]

I think the problem most Reg/Res have with the CIC is that they aren't soldiers.   It's kind of odd to have a branch of the military that wears the same uniform of the military and yet is full of members who are not soldiers.   So the argument is that CIC members should not be commissioned officers in the CF because they are not soldiers.

There are not many soldiers in the Navy.   However, that oversight aside, you are still a little off.   The argument is that CIC should not be members of the CF because they are not Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen.

Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen accept an "unlimited liability."  As members of the CF, the CIC can be called on to do the same.

Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen contribute to the operational effectiveness of the CF.   How do the CIC do this?   If they don't currently have a role, is there a role they could be given?

(BTW.. my official stance is CIC are PRES, therefore soldiers)

We've gone through this a plethora of times now.   CIC are not PRes!   CIC, Rangers, PRes, and SupRes are all separate components of the reserve force.

 

[CrashBear]

Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen contribute to the operational effectiveness of the CF.   How do the CIC do this?   If they don't currently have a role, is there a role they could be given?

The CIC does have a role as defined by an Act of Parliament stating that the Canadian Armed Forces will have oversite of the youth Organization called Cadets. The NDA and OR&O's are the Canadian Forces mechanism enabling the will of the people and the Government of Canada to have oversite to the largest Government supported youth organization in the country.   Those duties are assigned to the CIC as the duties should not be assigned to the RegF or PRes because of their primary duty. You wouldn't want a bunch of young people being trained in the craft of a soldier.   The CIC Officer is specifically trained to deal with youth, which is a job which most folks in the CAF not would want.

The CIC Officer is the choice of the Government, when and if they change it so be it. The CIC Officer if the so wish, if the CIC is disbanded can review their options according to their terms of service elect to transfer to another subcomponent of the reserves or regular force if a position is available.

The big question is should the Government be sponsoring a youth organization?

 

[McG]

The CIC does have a role ...

Okay, let me rephrase:

If they don't currently have a role,which contributes to the operational effectiveness of the CF, is there a role they could be given?

 

[CrashBear]

Oops.. my bad..

I humbly bow in shame...

Padre, I'm shocked that you have not learned to walk on water yet and be as perfect as everyone else. ;D

 

[CrashBear]

Okay, let me rephrase:

If they don't currently have a role,which contributes to the operational effectiveness of the CF, is there a role they could be given?

Given the operational role of the CF, the CIC are contributing to the operational effectiveness by relieving the fully operational component of the CF to do their primary duties and having primary duties of their own assigned to perform the mandate of the govt. It's call adequate delpoyment of resources.

 

[McG]

Given the operational role of the CF, the CIC are contributing to the operational effectiveness by relieving the fully operational component of the CF to do their primary duties and having primary duties of their own assigned to perform the mandate of the govt. It's call adequate delpoyment of resources.

I don't buy this argument.  Civilians could fill the roll just as easily.  The only way you could argue this is if you assume that the cadets themselves contribute to the operational effectiveness of the CF, and that the cadets required thier instructors to be CF members.

 

[CrashBear]

I don't buy this argument.   Civilians could fill the roll just as easily.   The only way you could argue this is if you assume that the cadets themselves contribute to the operational effectiveness of the CF.

It's not an argument, it's a fact. If the Govt wanted the Cadets to be run by a civilian organization they could have very easily enacted legislation that made it so. They Didn't as they wanted the CF to do the mandate. That's why the CCofC was formed in 1867 and the first Officer commissioned in 1902.

The funding that goes into the cadets could very easily be funneled into other govt priorities and the 60,000 + youth that benefit from it could be off doing something else and so could I.

I joined the CIC to pay back for what it invested in me when I was a Cadet in the 60's, as Soldier,as prison guard and a professional Fire Chief. now retired.  If it had not been for cadets and the CIL Officers then, my life would have had a different course.

I will call the Cadet Officers who were in charge Soldier's because that's what they were. Doing a duty for the country and making a difference.  Those gentlemen were in my opinion the best of the best because I know what a challenge that both myself and friend's were.  Given the challenges of today's youth I would still say the same. Do we have dud's in the system? Yes but they are being dealt with in accordance with regulations.

Can the CIC's job be done by civilians, probably yes with changes in legislation. The question is who is going to hold them accountable? What is the difference between a CIC Officer and a civilian?  The CIC officer is trained and held accountable. That meets the duty of care that the govt wants in this organization. 

There is no sense in what you say that the only way my argument would hold water is if the cadets contribute to the operational effectiveness of the CF. Cadets are not the issue in this debate. They are the reason the CIC was formed.

If folks believe that the CIC can not be called for active service you only have to look at QR&O's.  It has been done before (1939) and the majority of those were employed at training stations across the country.

Do some of the CIC find it hard to be a member of the military? Yes Do some members like not being able to drill and dress properly? Yes As a PRes member try looking any better with 9 periods of drill over a 10 day period and look any better.

 

[Neill McKay]

I don't buy this argument.   Civilians could fill the roll just as easily.

I think you'd find that the military mindset (and you may argue that it's weak in the CIC but by no means is it absent) is a key part of the cadet programme.  If it were run by someone other than CF members it would be a very different programme.

The only way you could argue this is if you assume that the cadets themselves contribute to the operational effectiveness of the CF, and that the cadets required thier instructors to be CF members.

Cadets don't directly contribute to operational effectiveness, but they do contribute to the public perception of the Forces -- in countless towns the closest thing to a military presence is the local cadet unit and its officers.  While keeping the Forces in the minds of the public doesn't have an immediate effect on operational effectiveness, but I'm sure you can understand that, in the long term, it's very desirable that the public not forget that we exist.  The Naval Reserve was established in the 1920s for the very same reason -- not because we had an operational need for a garrison of sailors in Regina, but because the navy needed to be seen by more than just the residents of Halifax and Esquimalt.

 

[McG]

If the Govt wanted the Cadets to be run by a civilian organization they could have very easily enacted legislation that made it so. They Didn't as they wanted the CF to do the mandate. That's why the CCofC was formed in 1867 and the first Officer commissioned in 1902.

If the CDS came to you tomorrow and asked for you to draft a CF policy recommendation on where the CIC belonged, would you build your argument around what the government of 1902 wanted?  We are not all idiots here, and we know how things are.  However, when debating how things should be, it's a pretty weak argument to throw up your hands and say "the legislation says it should be this way, so that is obviously the way it should be."

Cadets don't directly contribute to operational effectiveness, but they do contribute to the public perception of the Forces -- in countless towns the closest thing to a military presence is the local cadet unit and its officers. While keeping the Forces in the minds of the public doesn't have an immediate effect on operational effectiveness, but I'm sure you can understand that, in the long term, it's very desirable that the public not forget that we exist.

Now you've hit on the one relevant roll that I've found for keeping the CIC as CF members.  It also a roll of the PRes.  That is to connect with Canadians.

I think you'd find that the military mindset (and you may argue that it's weak in the CIC but by no means is it absent) is a key part of the cadet programme.  If it were run by someone other than CF members it would be a very different programme.

It is also an essential mindset to ensure the CIC is able to represent the CF to cadets and to Canadians (as part of connecting with the population).  As I am arguing that this is the one roll that would make the CIC relevant as a CF element (as opposed to a civillian org), then the training deficiencies (lamented at the start of the thread) would be whatever is missing to ensure this mindset is not weak in the CIC.

It was previously argued that the CIC should be required to take the same training as "every other officer.â ?  This vague demand was made by individuals that I suspect of being ignorant as to what is involved in officer training and the differences that exist depending on ones environment and component.  However, in order to establish this "military mindsetâ ? I would suspect that the PRes BMQ could provide a minimum starting point.  "But why not the PRes officer trgâ ? you ask?  Because, we do not need to train CIC to lead Pl & Coy into battle.  We only need to get that "military mindsetâ ? into them.  So, we can use the same course the CF uses to get the "military mindsetâ ? into every new reserve Pte (regardless of environment)

MCG

I agree with you that often the CIC is all that most communites see.  Every Officer should be versed in the Duties Roles and Responsibilities of the CF and where they fit into the scheme of things.  However detailed training in all aspects of the military to the CIC Officer is not really required based on their "Primary Duties and Responsibilities"  ...

The OPME program is a valuable resource for the CIC Officer but really not essential to the primary duties of a CIC Officer. Other more valuable sources of education would be of a benefit, thus meeting the criteria of development of a Professional Officer to perform the duties to which they are assigned.

While OPME training may not be required for the CIC's "Primary Duties and Responsibilities" it should be seen as essential for the duty of representing the CF to Canadians & cadets (and without this roll, the CIC may as well be civilian).  Canadian Military History, Leadership & Ethics, and Introduction to Defence Mgmt are the ones I see as being relevant to the CIC's roll.

 

[Steve031]

Fair enough: soldiers, sailors and airmen.  The argument here is not about what is, it is about whether what currently exists is agreed upon as a good solution.  Obviously, there are some problems that people have brought up.  There's no need to get defensive, these criticisms have been generally constructive and rarely aimed at individuals. 

Interestingly, the British army cadet force is staffed by civilians and their system has far more military training than ours.

Padre: do you think your job would exist in the CF if it did not contribute to the ultimate capabilities of the military: that is fighting wars?  Your job is about helping soldiers with spirituality, morality etc.  The reason the military wants these soldiers to be helped is so that they can do their job as effectively as possible (either helping them directly, or knowing that help is there if they need it at some point). 

 

[xFusilier]

I come from a bit of a different background then a lot of people who have posted one this subject, I am a 6A Res Infantry MCpl who works with a Cadet Corps (due to the fact that the nearest Res Unit is 1400 km away), for those of you who think that those who  decide to lead in the cadet movement as nothing more than glorified boy scout leaders I have one thing to say...give me trained soldiers to lead any day of the week.  *Anecedotal experience alert* there is as much of a challenge leading cadets as there is soldiers, the challenge simply comes in different forms.  As for the question "How do CIC officers contribute to the defence of Canada", well I hypothesize that more and more so the average Canadian's contact with the military is minimal, combine this with the fact that Cadets is the single largest youth leadership training program in Canada: Cadets is the single largest opportunity that the CF had to but it's best foot forward in a large number of communities in Canada.  Furthermore it is an oppourtunity for the CF to show the leaders of tommorow that the CF does make a difference.  We live in a democratic society and it is the opinion of these future leaders in terms of the political opinions that they aid in forming that will make or break the CF, far better that WE form the opinions of the leaders of tommorow, than the Young Dope-Smoking Hippie Pinko-League.

That being said, yes there are poor officers in the CIC, I have worked with a number of them, but to say that I worked in the BOR or the MIR of a cadet camp and blah, blah, blah, is basing an opinion on having sat back in the rear and not seen where the rubber meets the road i.e. the training that goes on at a Cadet Summer Training Centre.  The CF has to a large extent done the CIC a great diservice by failing to equip them with the tools they need to do their job (honestly if you are not a leader, a ten day commisioning course isn't going to teach you how to lead).

As for those who say that the CIC could be replaced by an NCO cadre, the reason that those NCO's (not NCM's) that work with Cadet Corps are as effective as they as is on the basis of the training that they have recieved as a young soldier.  The reason I can effectively lead in a cadet environment is based on my experiences in leading soldiers, thus leaving the question how are we to train NCM's to be effective leaders without the experience of leading soldiers.  To sit there and say that we already do that wiith the CiC is a dodge for those that don't like having to salute Cadet Cadre officers.  The fact of the matter is that members of the CF who choose (and I say choose, because I know a number of members of the CIC who are good officers period, they would be as sucessful in any other classification as the CIC...but choose or are forced to work as Cadet Instructors) assume a level of responsibility that does not exist when working with soldiers.  Every soldier assumes a certain amount of risk when he or she signs of the dotted line, the Cadet movement cannot take such risks with other people's kids.

I'm not trying to develop a screed here, but I've learned in the three years I've worked within the Cadet Movement that the age old adage of "walk a mile in my shoes" applies a hell of a lot in this case.

 

[Neill McKay]

It was previously argued that the CIC should be required to take the same training as â Å“every other officer.â ?   This vague demand was made by individuals that I suspect of being ignorant as to what is involved in officer training and the differences that exist depending on ones environment and component.   However, in order to establish this â Å“military mindsetâ ? I would suspect that the PRes BMQ could provide a minimum starting point.   â Å“But why not the PRes officer trgâ ? you ask?   Because, we do not need to train CIC to lead Pl & Coy into battle.   We only need to get that â Å“military mindsetâ ? into them.   So, we can use the same course the CF uses to get the â Å“military mindsetâ ? into every new reserve Pte (regardless of environment)

I agree with the thrust of that argument -- a good "basic" course is necessary.  The current CIC Basic Officer Qualification unfortunately tries to do a little bit too much in the time it has, mixing the indoctrination-type topics with some of the trade skills, if you like.  I'd rather see those kept in two separte courses.

While OPME training may not be required for the CIC's "Primary Duties and Responsibilities" it should be seen as essential for the duty of representing the CF to Canadians & cadets (and without this roll, the CIC may as well be civilian).   Canadian Military History, Leadership & Ethics, and Introduction to Defence Mgmt are the ones I see as being relevant to the CIC's roll.

Very much so.

 

[McG]

I agree with the thrust of that argument -- a good "basic" course is necessary.   The current CIC Basic Officer Qualification unfortunately tries to do a little bit too much in the time it has, mixing the indoctrination-type topics with some of the trade skills, if you like.   I'd rather see those kept in two separte courses.

Why not.   The rest of the CF splits the indoctrination and the occupation training into separate courses.   You could have a CIC BMOQ and a BCIQ (basic cadet instructor qualification).

I'm not going to argue each individual case, because I'm not trying to say it's alright for NCMs not to salute an officer.   I'm just explaining why so many of us feel this way.

What's this us stuff?? you got a mouse in yer pocket?   I never felt that way, I have been 031 over 15 years.   Sure there is that feeling that the cadets are our little brothers and sisters, but we are all of the same regimental family.   The CIC's in our regiment are respected as an officer holding a commission in OUR regimental family, and are offered the same High five.

I think this was addressed best by Mark C when he posted on saluting foreign officers:

Saluting foreign officers is an idicator of your OWN professionalism as a Canadian soldier, Full-Stop.  

Now ask yourself if you should be saluting them.....

I cannot believe that this topic has gone back and forth for 7 pages!    What is it about simple international military courtesy that so many here don't get?!?!

Saluting the CIC (or one's lack of desire to do so) should not even be a discussion point.


The Padre discussion has a new home: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/29182.0.html

 

[CrashBear]

If the CDS came to you tomorrow and asked for you to draft a CF policy recommendation on where the CIC belonged, would you build your argument around what the government of 1902 wanted?   We are not all idiots here, and we know how things are.   However, when debating how things should be, it's a pretty weak argument to throw up your hands and say "the legislation says it should be this way, so that is obviously the way it should be."

As a matter of fact it would be included under historical data.

It has however been well identified that the CIC Officers training is lacking, thus my previous posts identified where I felt the thrust of CIC Training should be.   Additional military training is in fact required and is required however not to the extend that the PRes would mandate. The jobs are just not the same.

A standardized basic course should be implemented, however one has to look at the funding required to do same and as well the additional time commitment being asked of the CIC Officer. I believe the last study that was conducted showed that the average CIC Officer works an average of 149 days a year of combined payed and voluntary service in order to adequately perform their duties at the unit level. I have been lead to belbelieveat this time does not include the summer deployment time for those as a summer training centre.   The old terms of service consited of 20 days per year and after the study was boosted to 23 days per year for corp officers and 33 days for unit CO's.

I feel that after enrolment that the CIC Officer should have to participate in the same Basic training prgram that exists for other Reserve Officers and then should be tailored to youth oriented problems.   Any other training should be avaialable as an On Line type of training model with the Officer given a timeline to complete.

The slagging that this forum has produced does not help in identifying how the CIC Officer can become a better trained and effective Officer. Whether the CIC Officer is respected by members of the PRes is a non issue. The vast majority of the RegF personnel that I have had the pleasure to work with with in the CCM have conducted them selves as total professionals.   Some comments made within this form by some including Directing Staff have shown a complete lack of professionalism.  

It is good to have a discussion on how to improve or remove a program within any govt service being provided.

 

[elscotto937]

I have been reading for a while, I made a decision to stay out of that education left turn that the thread took a while back. But, something that has been mentioned sort of irked me, the CIC as soldiers.
Now I will grant that the CIC are definately members of the CF and are officers properly commissioned by the Queen, they provide a necessary service to Canadian Youth,  but no where in my definition of soldier (I will leave the Navy and Airforce, to argue thier own sailor and Airman points) would a CIC be considered a soldier. Everyone in the CF aside from the CIC have a direct role in the domestic and international security of Canada. And no one should being up the dental and padres, because how do you keep a soldiers head in the game, if his jaw is rotting out and his wife left him for the mail man. They fill that direct support role, that being said that is not all that the do, Trinity enlightened us a few pages back, but a major function never the less.
One cannot say that inspiring the Canadian Youth to think fondly of the Canadian military, qualifies as direct support.

To those who that walked in the footsteps of soldiers and now choose to instruct youth, and to those who have decided to put on a uniform and accept the mantle of making better Canadian citizens through a military style organization, I say very well done, and a hearty thank you, you are doing the Canadian population a service and that should be commended.  Now to those CIC out there who are arguing that they are just like the PRes or Reg Force and feel the need to consistantly tell people that there commission is a real commission and they are soldiers, please get over yourselves, maybe you aren't in it for the kids(good question to ask yourselves) and just maybe you don't have what it takes to PRes or Reg Force and you have to go through life as a wannabee, and are using the CIC as a conduit for those crushed dreams of serving the the army.

Saluting issue, as MCG just posted is a Dead issue, however, I just wanted to add....to the Troops out there if you see a CIC officer comming, give him /her your best parade square salute(it speaks of your abilities, not his) and maybe you will be rewarded by the officer droping his papers/saluting with the wrong hand/etc... or best case that CIC was a former soldier who will respect you for you show of military form and ettiquette.