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Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)

  • Thread starter Thread starter the patriot
  • Start date Start date
CDN Aviator said:
OZ, you are not thinking far enough down the line. Think 20 years from now. If we want an adequate, sustainable pool of applicants in 20-30 years & beyond, we have to start changing attitudes and perceptions today.

Understood.  But what is wrong with how we are recruiting today? (In terms of attracting members) 
We seem to be backed up considerably. 
Do you mean a sustainable pool of applicants from the targeted diverse background or just in general?  I'm not disagreeing I just can't see the issue.
 
ObedientiaZelum said:
Understood.  But what is wrong with how we are recruiting today? (In terms of attracting members) 
We seem to be backed up considerably.

Do you mean a sustainable pool of applicants from the targeted diverse background or just in general? 

In General. I cannot remember the statistic but the time frame for Caucasians to become the minority in Canada but it is on the horizon. We are creeping there. A casual look at birthrates and immigration will make this fairly obvious. In , lets say 50 years, the majority of Canadians who meet the requirements for military service will not be the same as the ones beating down the doors today. They will come from backgrounds or nationality who do not see military service as we do, for a multitude of reasons.

The make up of the population is shifting. Simply saying with "we have no shortage of applicants now" is ignoring this shift. Changing attitudes and perceptions does not happen overnight. It can take decades.
 
ObedientiaZelum said:
Understood.  But what is wrong with how we are recruiting today? (In terms of attracting members) 
We seem to be backed up considerably. 
Do you mean a sustainable pool of applicants from the targeted diverse background or just in general?  I'm not disagreeing I just can't see the issue.

Part of the issue is that we didn't have enough people leave. The predicted attrition rate didn't materialise but the CF hired/processed for that target.  The thing is that we don't have a hard time attracting people to some trades so while we might have 4000 people applying to be in the combat arms we might only have 2 applying to be Naval Electronic Techs.  So while over the years we might have 4000 mostly male applicants a year for the combat arms to 1200 positions I only have 2 a year applying for 35 NET positions. I'm using these numbers as examples.  Now I don't know the state of things now but I'm sure the Navy is still hard pressed to fill those kinds of jobs.  The CF can't rely on the white male majority to fill those jobs.  I'm not saying they don't, just that we can't rely on them alone.  We have no problem attracting the 4000 guys who want to shoot guns.  What we need to attract are the 35 geeks with High school advanced math or even college level skills to fill some important jobs.  More women than ever are getting higher education, immigrants with skills are coming to Canada more than ever etc etc.  If we don't go and get them, someone else will.

Essentially we have no shortage of people that want to join up.  But we have a shortage of the right people for the right jobs.  And that will only get worse if we don't invest in targeting non-traditional population groups.
 
Crantor said:
"When we talk about trends and tendancies it means that certain demographics are not drawn to certain occupations."

What are the occupations that visual minority are not drawn into?
 
mariomike said:
A few more Employment Equity / Diversity / Target topics, if interested.

Topic: "Canadian Forces failing in gender integration and employment equity: report":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/2262.0

Topic: "Haven't We Done The "Target" Recruiting Before?":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/73674.0.html

Topic: "ROTP Questionare- Employment Equity Act":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/90556.0

Topic: "Employment equity is only for those who qualify":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37277.0/nowap.html

One more to add.

Topic: "Affirmative Action recruiting policies?":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/22619.0.html
5 pages.
 
Hi,

I’ve been closely following this thread.

I’m fairly fresh off the boat (been here for only five years) and I’m a visible minority.

Yes, Canadian demographics have changed and ideally the CF should be reflective of this. But what has stopped the “non white male” groups from applying? Information about the CF is freely available to most Canadian. Every applicant should be given an equal chance and the best person should be matched with every job opening. I can’t speak for Caucasian women, Aboriginals or other visible minorities. However I can speak for people from India because that’s where I came from. The Indian Army has several battalions of Sikh and Gurkha troops. Both the Sikhs and Gurkha are well recognized martial races. They both have a history of serving the Crown, numerous VCs, Orders of Merit, etc. The British Army had till recently toyed with the idea of raising a British Sikh Regiment. An idea that had been supported by none other than Prince Charles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1555507/Sikh-regiment-dumped-over-racism-fears.html

Why do we not see more Sikhs or rather people from the Indian Subcontinent applying to join the CF? I’ve been in the recruiting process for three and a half years now. During this time I’ve made numerous visits to the recruiting centre. I’m trying to remember when or if I ever saw another applicant there who looked like he/she was of Indian descent. Sadly, I have to say that I’ve seen only one other brown guy. I clearly remember this dude because he had showed up for the CFAT five minutes late, he was wearing town jeans, unshaven, had shoulder length hair. To top it all he was arguing with the staff at the front counter why they did not provide free parking. All in all – he didn’t give the impression of being the best candidate, but I could very well be wrong.

Anyway, getting back on topic – is there any statistic available which shows how many people belonging to visible minorities show up at the RCs inquiring about jobs? Once this number is ascertained, it’ll be easy to see why there are so few coloured people/ females in the CF.

I’ve asked several of my Sikh and other Indian friends (I’m not Sikh) if they’re interested in a career in the CF. The answer is a unanimous NO. In fact they turn my question around and ask me why I’ve been doggedly jumping through all the recruiting hoops and the net result is still zero. I do know a few blokes who’re interested but the idea of being in the queue for a few years because of foreign implications deters them from applying. Anyway, this is a separate topic and I’m not going to get into it.

The majority of Indians I’ve spoken to, do not want to join the forces because they live in joint families and can’t bear the thought of relocating. My father served in the India Army. One of his postings was to a Self Propelled unit. This unit recruited only Sikh troops. I remember the pride that they had for serving their country. For the troops and some of the officers who were also Sikhs, they were following the footsteps of their ancestors. There is also another reason which some of my pals have told me – “lack of respect”. A number of them compare the forces of the two nations based on the perception in the minds of the general public. I have lived in India, so I can see where they’re coming from. The military presence in India is huge. Civilians routinely see military personnel and vehicles in their cities and villages. A number of the cities have cantonments. Because of all these reasons, there is a great sense of awe among the civilian populace. Travelling in buses and trains, it is normal to see civilians leave their seats for a military member. In Canada, on the other hand – I have not been around  much and I’m still relatively new here, so I can’t really say what the general perception is towards the Forces. I do think that, there is a great deal of respect for soldiers and veterans.

The same friends I spoke to regarding the forces are trying to join various police departments. So the fear of putting oneself into harm’s way is not the case. If I’m not mistaken, there are more Indians in the Reserves than in the Regular Force. Which again reinforces my earlier point about why most Indo-Canadians do not look at the CF as a career option.

Now, speaking about the Cadets. I volunteer at a Cadets unit. It’s heartening to see kids from diverse backgrounds and cultures. Kids belonging to Indian ethnicity are certainly not a minority in this particular unit. A number of the senior ranking cadets are Indo-Canadians. On asking them if they have any intention of joining the Forces, the answer again is “no”. The cadet program, I’m told by them is only for “resume building” or because the parents wanted someone to instil some “discipline” in their kids. A number of the Caucasian kids (girls and boys) on the other hand can’t wait till they’re of age, so that they can apply to join the CF.

What I have said may not appeal to certain people and it is not my intention to hurt anyone’s sentiments. Thank you to those who have taken the time to read this post.

Cheers.
 
Allgunzblazing said:
But what has stopped the “non white male” groups from applying?

Nothing.

Every applicant should be given an equal chance and the best person should be matched with every job opening.

This is how things are.
 
Aviator, this is exactly what I'm saying.

All applicants are already being given an equal opportunity - it is for people to make use of this.
 
Allgunzblazing said:
it is for people to make use of this.

Convincing them to choose us as a career is something we must do, for several good reasons.
 
roadrunner60 said:
Well all i know is canadian is spelt canadian not CDN but who am i to say

Who said that "CDN" represented a nationality ?
 
Back on topic - does anyone know the numbers or rather percentages of minorities in the US, British, Australian and New Zealand armed forces? Great Britain has a sizeable immigrant population and the others also have native communities. So in a way similar to Canada. If these nations have more minorities in their forces than us, then what is the reason for this?

 
"Can the Canadian Forces Reflect Canadian Society?":
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo8/no3/jung-eng.asp

"Since the majority of MAs, which constitute the bulk of the Canadian population, are not the traditional recruitment bases for the CF, it is questionable whether the CF has ever been truly reflective of Canada, even if one were to leave the visible minority issue on the sidelines."

MA = Metropolitan Area

 
"How?"  A lot more research and dialogue with people from minority backgrounds.  Focus groups have their limitations, but it could be a start in understanding cultural values and nuances (thereby avoiding stereotypes), and asking participants how CF could be made more appealing/barriers/advertising content, etc. Or even starting a thread if one hasn't already been.

Also, this is an excellent example of how the CF can benefit from diversity, perhaps forming a planning committee comprised of visible minority CF members. 

You can also learn from what HAS worked and build on that.  ie. What made some visible minorities decide to take the plunge despite the CF not being appealing to their group in general?  If you can get at that information, that would be gem.

 
bdb1231 said:
What are the occupations that visual minority are not drawn into?

Um, lots.  Basically anything that is less education than university level.  Lets just say, education and professional status is the end all and be all in, *ahem*, uh, some cultures.  What you do for a living really matters - its all about face- not just for yourself, but also for your parents.
 
roadrunner60 said:
Cant we just be friends canadian aviator, cant we just all get along.
:peace:

Quit trolling.

Staff
 
"What has stopped the nonwhite male groups from applying?"

CDN Aviator said:
I disagree.  I can't name anything specific, but I think there could be very subtle things that could easily be missed.  They would be things specific to the minority culture, like internal barriers.  I think if the CF is interested in hiring the best and the brightest (creating a larger pool to draw from), they should find out and address those barriers. On a very superficial level, I agree, there is nothing stopping the nonwhite male groups from applying. Noone is holding a gun to their heads if they walk into a recruiting centre.

 
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