Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)

[aesop081]

It is true that the US does things differently, and I don't think we are going to see a Colin Powell like person here anytime soon. The Toronto police has a black deputy chief of police and Vancouver has a Chief of police that is of Chinese background, which is more than can be said for other cities and provinces

Wouldnt want the best person for the job now would we .....

:

 

[opcougar]

Wouldnt want the best person for the job now would we .....

:

Sure we would, but let's be serious here..........for the past god knows how many years, there hasn't been the odd black good enough to be a LCol, full Col or BGen?

 

[aesop081]

for the past god knows how many years, there hasn't been the odd black good enough to be a LCol, full Col or BGen?

I do know what the answer is to that but so f'ing what ?

If there has not been, what would you have the CF do? Promote one just to say we did ?

An individual gets promoted based on his/her own merit. Thats it.

 

[Mudshuvel]

This month being black history month, and with dnd having these big poster boards in certain building with pictures of black Canadian soldiers dating back from when till the 1990s, but with only 2 pictures of officers ( Capts ). I was wondering if anyone has come across a black CF member of African decent of the rank of LCol and above?

There are many Majs knocking around in the different elements and a few CWOs that I have seen. Also how many black have received the CDS commendation and other non-deployments medals?

It is true that the US does things differently, and I don't think we are going to see a Colin Powell like person here anytime soon. The Toronto police has a black deputy chief of police and Vancouver has a Chief of police that is of Chinese background, which is more than can be said for other cities and provinces

You have to look at it from a census point of view. Vancouver has a Chinese Chief of Police, Toronto a black one, rest of Canada, not so much. Well, Canada is a pretty diverse country, but censuses show that in smaller provinces, there are not the largest concentrations of different ethnicities. I have a first-hand perspective on it. My wife is Latin American and I swear she's the only one in my city of 150 000 people. For African Americans, a very very small populations and an even smaller one with other ethnicities. We have had a Colin Powell like person already, Michaelle Jean is black, Haitian-descended and pretty much the highest power of our country and technically the 'Commander-in-Arms' of the Canadian Forces.

The difference between the US and Canada (in the Military sense), you have to be a citizen to fight for Canada, my wife is was born in the US and is a former Marine, and she informed me of the US Military incentive that if you're an immigrant, illegal or otherwise, you can join the military and earn your citizenship. Of course, this isn't publicly advertised. Think of how many people at that point join just for that? Look as well at the numbers of minorities in the US compared to here in Canada. Have you thought that maybe the reason we don't have a lot of 'minorities' in our Armed Forces is just because they don't want to be?

 

[Journeyman]

I was wondering if anyone has come across a black CF member of African decent of the rank of LCol and above......CDS commendation.....

Are you suggesting we increasingly promote, and give meritorious awards, to non-whites simply based upon skin colour?
:

For posts like this to come across as anything other than uninformed pot-stirring, one would have to provide some numbers. What percentage of, say Majors, in the CF are Black (since that's your obvious focus). I would be surprised if it's even 1%. Yet, you're suggesting they be promoted to LCol...just because.

Since you obviously don't have any numbers to back your premise, take a look at military personnel on any parade square; how many non-caucasian are present? Yes, the overwhelming majority of CF members are white. It has absolutely nothing to do with the KKK or the Black Panthers or the Chinese Triads -- it's the current reality of Canadian demographics and the people who are drawn to CF service.



ps -- I happen to know several non-white pers who have CDS Commendations, GG Commendations, and even Wound Stripes. Good soldiers and leaders come in all shades, but we all bleed the same colour. Anyone suggesting otherwise a fucking idiot.

 

[opcougar]

I hear you an dthe US incentive you talk about is well known, there was a documentary on that on TV. You committed a cardinal sin in your post, refering to black Canadians as African Americans? A black in Canada might not have any connection to the US. Blacks in the US are called that because they were either born there and of African origin.

In Canada, it's Canadian African, Canadian Jew, Canadian Italian et al

You have to look at it from a census point of view. Vancouver has a Chinese Chief of Police, Toronto a black one, rest of Canada, not so much. Well, Canada is a pretty diverse country, but censuses show that in smaller provinces, there are not the largest concentrations of different ethnicities. I have a first-hand perspective on it. My wife is Latin American and I swear she's the only one in my city of 150 000 people. For African Americans, a very very small populations and an even smaller one with other ethnicities. We have had a Colin Powell like person already, Michaelle Jean is black, Haitian-descended and pretty much the highest power of our country and technically the 'Commander-in-Arms' of the Canadian Forces.

The difference between the US and Canada (in the Military sense), you have to be a citizen to fight for Canada, my wife is was born in the US and is a former Marine, and she informed me of the US Military incentive that if you're an immigrant, illegal or otherwise, you can join the military and earn your citizenship. Of course, this isn't publicly advertised. Think of how many people at that point join just for that? Look as well at the numbers of minorities in the US compared to here in Canada. Have you thought that maybe the reason we don't have a lot of 'minorities' in our Armed Forces is just because they don't want to be?

 

[Sapplicant]

In Canada, it's Canadian African, Canadian Jew, Canadian Italian et al

It's that need to seperate ones self from others that drives racism, you know. Why the hell can't we all just be Canadian? Who the frig cares what colour your skin is? Journeyman said it best, about bleeding the same colour. What does an abundance, or lack, of melanin REALLY have to do with anything? Seriously?

 

[Michael OLeary]

opcougar,

The irony here is that after decades of being told we shouldn't "see" colour when we deal with people, you can come here and expect that we can share detailed knowledge of who has received what and their ethnicity. I would suggest you start with an Access to Information Act request to DND to get your answer, and/or petition the GG website to add a "skin colour" field to their Honours and Awards page so that you can track the statistics you appear to be looking for.

 

[Mudshuvel]

I hear you an dthe US incentive you talk about is well known, there was a documentary on that on TV. You committed a cardinal sin in your post, refering to black Canadians as African Americans? A black in Canada might not have any connection to the US. Blacks in the US are called that because they were either born there and of African origin.

In Canada, it's Canadian African, Canadian Jew, Canadian Italian et al

It can go either way, America is a continent, not a country.

I'm just going to assume a "well the United States has black people in power including a black president" post is going to come up at some point here.

In Milwaukee, black people aren't known to vote. They see a black candidate they are ALL going to vote. I'm going to put this as bluntly as I can, this is not my opinion, but the opinion of people who live in this situation. For a moment, its going to seem off-topic but its leading up to a point.

In a lot of States in the US, a lot of African Americans are on welfare, and they are pretty much born into it. A common mentality in some states (Wisconsin, for example) is that the government owes them. My sister-in-law, Mexican American, was told she only got financial assistance because her son was half-black. In some laws for businesses there, a business is supposed to have a certain percentage of whatever ethnicity to avoid the 'you don't hire me because I'm _______'. I'm not insinuating that they have generals or what have you that are black just for that reason, but look at the size of their military and look at the size of ours. They have more black people in their military than we have people in our military. Example: hypothetically we have 70 000 people in our military, lets say 10 people are black, and 3 of them are generals. Then WOW! 30% of all black people in the military are generals! Then we have 20 white generals out of 60 000 white people in the military, thats not good.. 3.3% of all white people are generals? Look at the military demographics. My above figures give it about 1/200 shot for a black person in the military to be promoted over a white guy, its not racism, but its just more white guys with the same qualifications applying for the same position or being given the promotion or whatever.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

In Canada, it's Canadian African, Canadian Jew, Canadian Italian et al

Wrong again. Here you're just Canadian. Period.

As for the rest of this moronic thread, I'll also stand by my original comment, up top, from years ago, being as nothing has changed.

However, I'll reiterate just to be clear.

If you believe there is a problem, grow a pair and report it and get it dealt with. Don't come here crying in your skirt like a little girl and try stir up shit where none exists.

 

[Neill McKay]

Sure we would, but let's be serious here..........for the past god knows how many years, there hasn't been the odd black good enough to be a LCol, full Col or BGen?

I think the premise of your argument is nonsense and I'm not really interested in getting involved, but I will note that I have, in fact, met a black LCol.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It can go either way, America is a continent, not a country.

I'm just going to assume a "well the United States has black people in power including a black president" post is going to come up at some point here.

In Milwaukee, black people aren't known to vote. They see a black candidate they are ALL going to vote. I'm going to put this as bluntly as I can, this is not my opinion, but the opinion of people who live in this situation. For a moment, its going to seem off-topic but its leading up to a point.

In a lot of States in the US, a lot of African Americans are on welfare, and they are pretty much born into it. A common mentality in some states (Wisconsin, for example) is that the government owes them. My sister-in-law, Mexican American, was told she only got financial assistance because her son was half-black. In some laws for businesses there, a business is supposed to have a certain percentage of whatever ethnicity to avoid the 'you don't hire me because I'm _______'. I'm not insinuating that they have generals or what have you that are black just for that reason, but look at the size of their military and look at the size of ours. They have more black people in their military than we have people in our military. Example: hypothetically we have 70 000 people in our military, lets say 10 people are black, and 3 of them are generals. Then WOW! 30% of all black people in the military are generals! Then we have 20 white generals out of 60 000 white people in the military, thats not good.. 3.3% of all white people are generals? Look at the military demographics. My above figures give it about 1/200 shot for a black person in the military to be promoted over a white guy, its not racism, but its just more white guys with the same qualifications applying for the same position or being given the promotion or whatever.

Drop the tangent. This topic is stupid enough already.

 

[brihard]

I hear you an dthe US incentive you talk about is well known, there was a documentary on that on TV. You committed a cardinal sin in your post, refering to black Canadians as African Americans? A black in Canada might not have any connection to the US. Blacks in the US are called that because they were either born there and of African origin.

In Canada, it's Canadian African, Canadian Jew, Canadian Italian et al

I don't even think about it that way. I think a lot of us don't.

I mean, I am *aware* that one of my troops is Tamil, that another is Palestinian, that one of the other guys in the platoon is Korean, that one of my other buddies is black... I just don't care whatsoever, in that it in no way affects how I think about or interact with those people. It's of no more significance than knowing that so and so is francophone versus that other guy being of Italian descent. Maybe it's a generational thing, but I think more and more of us are growing up 'colour blind' as it regards working with people of other races.

So no, I don't think of my troops or peers as 'Tamil-Canadian', or 'Palestinian-Canadian'. Generally their first names suffice when I feel some pressing need to identify them. Or rank and last name if I'm angry about something or at least need to play that role.  >

 

[Rheostatic]

This thread needs some facts.

Based upon the data available,9 the recruitment pool for the CF traditionally has been fit young men between the ages of 17 and 24, coming from rural areas or from urban areas with a population of less than 100,000. Recruits generally have been white males with previous familial CF ties, possessing a high school education or less. Since the majority of MAs, which constitute the bulk of the Canadian population, are not the traditional recruitment bases for the CF, it is questionable whether the CF has ever been truly reflective of Canada, even if one were to leave the visible minority issue on the sidelines. Therefore, since it is unlikely that the demographics, and perhaps the values, of the CF were ever truly reflective of Canada, the suggestion that somehow visible minorities should be recruited in a manner that represents the Canadian diversity is highly contentious. It is likely that the only time the Canadian Forces ever truly ‘reflected’ Canada was when conscription was in force during the two great global conflicts of the 20th Century. Thus, within a professional and volunteer force such as the CF, it is questionable if the CF can truly ‘reflect’ Canada.

[Wow, it is not easy to post a table.]

Line 1: "If an army does not reflect the values and composition of the larger society that nurtures it, it invariably loses the support and allegiance of that society." Of course we must balance this need with "the right person for the right job" not through unearned promotions (as was suggested above) but by eliminating institutional barriers to advancement, if they exist.

 

[mariomike]

This thread needs some facts.

Interesting article.
Lots of information about Diversity and Employment Equity in the CF:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=KjE&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&q=employment+equity+canadian+forces&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g-v1&aql=&oq=

http://www.google.ca/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=diversity+canadian+forces&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

 

[patienttaxreceipt]

Patriot, nobody among CFs can afford to be racist. Aside from getting court-martialed, the alleged cannot escape civil liability if done in the presence of other people.. The cops will arrest him, criminally charge him, and impose civil liability on him. I know of one who was charged civilly, was forced to mortgage his house and pay 2 million dollars as exemplary and punitive damages. Not committing racism is like not crossing  the street when the lights are red or not passing a red light. Why are you making a big deal out of it? I would like to know..

 

[JesseWZ]

Patriot, nobody among CFs can afford to be racist. Aside from getting court-martialed, the alleged cannot escape civil liability if done in the presence of other people.. The cops will arrest him, criminally charge him, and impose civil liability on him. I know of one who was charged civilly, was forced to mortgage his house and pay 2 million dollars as exemplary and punitive damages. Not committing racism is like not crossing  the street when the lights are red or not passing a red light. Why are you making a big deal out of it? I would like to know..

You're responding to a poster from 9 years ago... who is no longer even a part of this forum. Not to mention, I think your arc markers might be set a little wide.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Right. It died almost ten years ago, as it should have.

This is getting dangerously close to being moved to Radio Chatter, where it belongs, with all the other tin hat bullshit.

 

[ModlrMike]

Right. It died almost ten years ago, as it should have.

This is getting dangerously close to being moved to Radio Chatter, where it belongs, with all the other tin hat bullshit.

Agreed! I recommend we lock it.

 

[DirtyDog]

This thread is completely ridiculous, yet I feel compelled to say a few things.

First off, if some people feel discriminated against, I would suggest that in some cases it has nothing to do with their skin colour or ethnicity but simply because they are whiny dolts.  As demonstrated by some in this thread.  I don't mean to downplay actual racial discrimination, which I've never  personally witnessed in the Forces, but I fully support discriminatory behaviour against idiots.

As far as representation....  If more minorities felt compelled to actually serve this country (as they are well under-represented in the CF), maybe we would see more of them in senior positions.  Unfortunately, this is not the case.