Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)

[Jarnhamar]

Well, since it's been (just about) 15 years since the OP made the comment to which you are now replying

:facepalm:

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm pretty sure our current Defence Minister is a good example of how biased the CF and Canadian culture is against visible minorities i.e., solidly equal opportunity biased.

 

[George Wallace]

Just to be facetious, didn't we already have a "minority" CDS - Gen Hillier.  As much as we of the Newf persuasion are hailed as good fellows and having the reputation of making good soldiers, there was (and perhaps still is) a lingering impression that we weren't as smart or as well suited for high rank as those Anglophones from regions with less identifiable accents.

Just as facetious, the CDS after him was a Ukrainian.  :warstory:

 

[ModlrMike]

Quote from: recceguy on January 19, 2002, 12:00:00

That's got to be the winningest necropost ever.

 

[brihard]

I'm pretty sure our current Defence Minister is a good example of how biased the CF and Canadian culture is against visible minorities i.e., solidly equal opportunity biased.

Reasonably sure being Sikh is a leg up in Vancouver.  ;D But that said, and levity aside- you know better than to put up a straw man like that. There will be anecdotes in either direction. Some of x historically disadvantaged group in the CAF will do quite well, some will do quite poorly. x group might be GLBT, might be people of colour, might be women, whatever.

The CAF reflects society. Society in the past has been systemically racist, and in some ways may well still be. Ipso facto, the CAF has had some issues with same, though in some ways we have sought to be leaders in advancing past that. In nay case, even if we pretended that at this moment there is no longer any racism in the CAF, and if we accept that at some point in the indeterminate past the CAF likely reflected the racism that was systemic in society, then it must follow that there has been an evolution from outright racism towards equality that nonetheless, through improvement not being total and complete, has left some members of those groups subject to some rather terrible treatment. We have already seen a number of accounts come out where members were subjected to racial abuse and where chains of command did not act when their attention was brought to it, despite there being clear service offences committed. I believe in large part that these things happened. This lawsuit would appear to reflect a lot of grievances that are somewhat historical in nature, going back many years, before the possible generational shift that we are in the later stages of at this time and which *I think* is bringing improvements.

I can absolutely guarantee that anyone who says 'this didn't happen' and tries to portray these troops as whiners will end up on the wrong side of history on this one. Our institution moves forward through the painful and public airing of stale, dirty laundry, and we're in a glut of that right now. I would humbly suggest that this may be one of those cases where those of us who have not experienced this discrimination should probably just STFU and listen to those who have. Let the courts be the triers of fact as they're supposed to be, and make sure that we as professionals carry on and continue to be the positive change we want to see within our institution.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Just as facetious, the CDS after him was a Ukrainian.  :warstory:

Oh, I thought he was of Polish heritage . . . I seem to recall that the Poles made a bit of a fuss over him (as one of their own done good) when he made an official visit there a few years back and they later presented him with one of their orders.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I think Brihard has a good post. With that said, the issue at hand is: is the CF systemically racist (ie by official or unofficial policy) or does it just contain normal people who fall somewhere on the racism spectrum ( in other words, I will posit that all humans are racist, but is it to degree that really matters in day-to-day social and work interactions?).

I have personally seen no evidence of official policy in my 30 years in the CF that would support the theory that the CF is systemically racist. In actual fact, the organization seems to bend over backwards to accommodate those of different cultures. Merit boards which determine promotions have no method of determining the racial background of the files in front of them- there are no pictures of the candidates.

Now, have I met people within the CF who have displayed unacceptably racist conduct? Yes I have. Sometimes, it has been racism of the thoughtless jokey kind that is nonetheless hurtful and unacceptable. On rare occasion, it has been something worse.

While it is easy to state that there is a zero tolerance for racism, achieving that aim is difficult because we are recruiting indivuals from a broad strata of Canadian society and they bring theirs views, opinions and prejudices into the organization. In a perfect world, we can change those views. In the real world, the most we can hope for is that they not display or act upon inappropriate thoughts and opinions and that they suffer consequences if they do.

 

[Journeyman]

I would humbly suggest that this may be one of those cases where those of us who have not experienced this discrimination should probably just STFU and listen to those who have.

So even though you acknowledge that the lawsuit appears to reflect a lot of past-tense grievances, and that we are likely improving, we should simply cede the argument and allow everyone to be tarred with the same brush?  I disagree  (equally humbly ).

Beachdown has effectively stated that Caucasian supervisors dealing with minorities, or who grew up in a small town, are racist -- subliminally or otherwise; including "it's a fact!" (with exclamation mark, which apparently makes it true).  That very statement is both racist and stupid intellectually unsupported.  If anyone posted a racist comment like "identifiable group x  are lazy thieving drunks... (even with 'it's a fact!',)" they would be well on their way to being banned.

Now, I've never been a proponent of group punishments for shit I never did.  And basing this "fact" on a survey that's even more statistically lame than the Deschamps report is probably what we should expect when no one calls BS.

While I personally have no issues with women, 'people of colour,' GLBT troops in the military, I do  have serious heartache with stupidity.  While I concur that there are legitimate grievances out there, this thread is not remotely supportive of the way ahead.


Edit:  What SKT wrote, only more rabid and  :brickwall:  on my part.   

 

[mariomike]

In a perfect world, we can change those views.

Something I remember from over 44 years ago.

That we were recruited from a society with many prejudices.

"I cannot change your beliefs, but if you treat anyone with disrespect, I can change your employment!”

End of lesson. Took about 60 seconds.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Mario, I freely admit I stole that from you. It is a good method of dealing with workplace misbehaviour.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

After years of status quo....Toronto joined the ranks of other cities that have a minority as their chief. Vancouver had a Chinese guy as the chief for a while and am sure other cities do as well.

OP...a minority CDS at time soon? Probably won't happen in our lifetime. As you alluded to, nobody is dumb enough these days to go up to someone and show their racist inclination, but the system can be used to hold back minorities from getting ahead in the CAF. I mean what is the number of visible minorities past the rank of MWO or LCol in all the CAF elements?

Why does it matter how many women or minorities have become RSMs or Generals? Wouldn't you rather the most qualified personnel be selected to fill the job, rather than just promote people to fill a "visible diversity quota"?

 

[PuckChaser]

Why does it matter how many women or minorities have become RSMs or Generals?

Because its current year.

 

[mariomike]

Why does it matter how many women or minorities have become RSMs or Generals?

Not for me to say "why".
But, for anyone interested, the statistics begin on page 22,

CANADIAN FORCES EMPLOYMENT EQUITY
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2014/mdn-dnd/D3-31-2012-eng.pdf

Men
Women
Aboriginal People
Visible Minorities
Persons with Disabilities

MILITARY OCCUPATIONAL GROUPS
REPRESENTATION PER MILITARY RANK - OFFICERS and NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

 

[blacktriangle]

BS. At least two commanders I've had were female or a visible minority. Both at the GOFO level now. I don't think they would have wanted it handed to them, either.

 

[mariomike]

These stats are 2011– 2012.

I believe they are the most recent statistics available.

To view the stats, click, "Continue to pdf."
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2014/mdn-dnd/D3-31-2012-eng.pdf

BS.

I don't know why they keep stats.
But, they are obviously going to a lot of time and trouble to do so.  That's some very detailed record keeping. Must be important to someone(s). 

More on the recent case,
http://www.680news.com/2016/12/23/three-former-military-members-launch-suit-alleging-systemic-racism-forces-2/

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If this supervisor say grew up in a small town with no exposure to minorities, or was done wrong in the past by a certain minority group, you can't tell me that their judgement dealing with minorities won't be effected by their experience. People are afraid of the unknown/what they don't know....this is a fact!

And I say BULLSHIT.  I am a white guy from a relatively small town, and I've had subordinates that are from minority groups and I treat them the same as anyone else...how they perform and get along with other people.  If they are awesome, they are awesome.  If they are hammerheads, they are hammerheads.

I didn't need any special training and surveys, I had a really simple thing back in the day called 'The 10 Principles of Leadership' to guide me on how I conducted myself as a Jnr/Snr NCO (the 3 Ms...Mission, Men, Myself).  My recruit serial in Cornwallis 27 years ago had people from all across the country and different backgrounds, some of them Native/Aboriginal, and guess how they were treated?  Depended on how they performed and got along with people.  Wow.  With no special training either!!

This "from top to bottom, systemic" line is utter BULLSHIT.  Are there people in uniform that don't act IAW our Military Ethics/Ethos?  There are, there is no doubt.  But what people like me, Average Joe White Guy in Uniform, are tired of is being told we are all rapists, racist hunks of trash who can't use common sense and have had parents and communities who didn't bring us up as decent Canadians.

Make the message accurate and I'll stand behind it; there is a problem with SOME people in uniform who have actions and attitudes that do not follow the ones demanded by the CAF.  I've got 27 years in, serving in Army, Air and Navy units, both Reg and Reserve, and this 'systemic top to bottom' message is false.  Have I witnessed racist comments, harassment, etc?  Yup...but I can count those on 1 hand over 27 years in the mob. 

The worst one I witnessed personally was a superior (NCM) who referred to a group of about 5 of us (Snr NCOs on a course) as 'you $#(&* white guys', the year was 2003.  He was an Aborginal / Native Canadian.  Should that = 'all Aboriginal/Native service members are racist toward @&(*@#@ white guys?  It didn't, and doesn't to me to this day.  That wouldn't be fair to the rest of the Aboriginal/Native service members, would it? 

Should there now be a survey and public outcry because I would answer the survey truthfully and state I was on the receiving end of a racist comment by a Native Canadian superior at least once, and suggest it "is top to bottom, and every Aboriginal / Native service member is part of it"? 

Full stop;  it is not top to bottom, systemic and 'everyone'.  I am tired the wide brush crap, pointed at ANY group in the CAF.

 

[mariomike]

Harjit Sajjan says he ‘faced a lot of racism’ while in Canadian military
http://globalnews.ca/news/3129853/canadian-military-racism-harjit-sajjan-isis-mosul/
Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan, the first Sikh-Canadian to command a Canadian army regiment, said he never experienced racism before joining the military.

“I finally found out what racism was when I joined the military,” Sajjan told Global News in a one-on-one interview.

 

[Jed]

Harjit Sajjan says he ‘faced a lot of racism’ while in Canadian military
http://globalnews.ca/news/3129853/canadian-military-racism-harjit-sajjan-isis-mosul/
Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan, the first Sikh-Canadian to command a Canadian army regiment, said he never experienced racism before joining the military.

“I finally found out what racism was when I joined the military,” Sajjan told Global News in a one-on-one interview.

Wow!  That is telling. I find this very, very hard to believe that he did not experience racism prior to going in the military and subsequently the military life exposed him to said racism.

I suspect he has succumbed to social and political pressure to tow the perceived party line at the expense of the troops.

It it certainly alters my very positive impression I had of him when he first took on the job. Kind of like when Pres. Obama came in and eight years later you can't wait for him to just go away. Absolutely nothing to do with racism.

Needless to say this is just my personal opinion and I would never express it if I was still in a uniform in service to the Country.

 

[mariomike]

Kind of like when Pres. Obama came in and eight years later you can't wait for him to just go away.

Then, it's a good thing he can't be re-elected to a third term! He won his second term by a popular vote margin of 5 million votes and 332 electoral votes.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Wow!  That is telling. I find this very, very hard to believe that he did not experience racism prior to going in the military and subsequently the military life exposed him to said racism.

I don't know, think about it.  Maybe when he joined the Reserves, it was one of the times he was out of his 'cultural community' for any length of time, and mixed in with others who are Canadian but identify as "XYZ-Canadian", and those cultural backgrounds don't care for each other. 

Disclaimer - I have no idea of the MNDs personal history at all, but just trying to demonstrate a scenario this is plausible.  I think it is certainly possible, maybe more so in the Reserve than Regular world.