Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]

[mo-litia]

There is prejudice in the army. Soldiers are largely tough enough to push through it. The worst and most persistant prejudice I have ever encountered is the ancient Regforce prejudice against Reservists.

What ARE you talking about? I have NEVER heard of such a thing...oh wait, two pages back...whatever brought on all those comments about sexist reserve soldiers...? ***I move quickly to avoid a kidney shot from an enraged Liberal...***

Now that she's gone,   I'll bet you anything that Infanteer is actually a woman. Certainly that was my first thought on this thread, why else would anyone specificly use the gender neutral term "Infanteer", a word essentially invented by the PC police   in order to accomodate women,   as a moniker?

LMAO Maybe she's just overly enlightened...

And just so you know, 'Infanteer' was invented by Canada to be PC. It's not even in any recognized dictionary at this point in time. Now if you'll excuse me, I've goota go have some beers with my buddies the 'Fireteers' down at the station!  ;D

 

[Infanteer]

Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in....

Okay, only to clear up some muddy waters.   No, I'm not a woman.

Funny that the guy (girl?) bugging me goes by the name "Britney Spears" - I think the confusion is in Britney's mind... :dontpanic:

As for "Infanteer", I just picked it as a username when I first signed on here as a Private.   I figured it was easier to type and it wasn't as much as a mouthful as "Infantryman" and had a bit of flair (like Musketeers   :warstory:, or Mouseketeers   :-X).   So relax, don't get your tits in a knot; it's not some effort to pull of some 1984-ish thought police coup.

Anyways, last time I checked "Mo-Litia" wasn't a word either....

 

[mo-litia]

Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in....

Anyways, last time I checked "Mo-Litia" wasn't a word either....

True dat!  But it's not like the mo-litia is a job either; more like an aggravation that one gets attached to over time! (It sure isn't about the pay, that's for sure...) ;D

 

[jmacleod]

Various Human Rights legislation in Canada mandates "equal opportunity". I see no reason why women
who volunteer for a career in the Canadian Forces should not be assigned to a combat unit. I remember
meeting many USAF and USN women pilots at the famed Shearwater International Air Show several
times - one was an F-14 driver from the USS John F. Kennedy I think, which was in Halifax NS at the
time, and had launched aircraft to support the Air Show. I remember meeting the crew of KC-135
tanker, and the entire crew were women - the US and British military colleges have a lot of women
students, and many graduates as serving officers. MacLeod

 

[Meridian]

This is exceptionally interesting and I brought this actual thread up (dont hate me) in my Political Thought discussion group yesterday...  We were discussing Mill's On the Subjugation of Women, and whether in today's day and age we still appeal to traditionary references to attempt to justify how we do things. (This eventually led into the gay marriage debate, and basically proved that noone is clear just exactly what the issues are).


It is interesting that in that survey at least, the "Western Army" would prefer women not to be in the military, and in the east, this feeling is less prevalent.

Even more still is that there are varying reasons for it. I've had debates with firefighter friends and civilians alike who have the same notion about a rescue workers. Some people appeal to the emotional attachment they feel towards "women and children" and thus faced with seeing a colleague die and that colleague being a woman; well, its tough. For many firefighters it is tough to have any victim die, but for them it is often much harder when it is a woman or child versus a man. Rightly or wrongly this is often an expressed sentiment, Im told.

The other argument that seems prevalent is physical capability & lowering standards for women so as to offer "equal access". The issue here is predominantly that if you are lowering one standard vs another to offer "equality", you are thereby immediately eliminating equality from the overall equation.  I know that most women would argue that they dont want to just meet the lower standards, that they want to be judged equally, but Ive seen a few (in my limited, short time) who rested on those laurels up until they did pisspoor on a CFEXpres test and just passed at the female level. Obviously this is not the case for all women, but still...  Think about that..  Im all for women being able to be firefighters... but Im also all for them having to be able to carry/lift/work just as hard as any equal man. Some women can, some women cant.. but then again, some men cant either.


---

As for the actual thread being alive/around:

Debate is important. This is not about "singling women out", GIJANE.  I can see how this would be intensely personal to you, but there is no issue surrounding Men in the military - it surrounds women in the military.  Just ignoring something or making it "taboo" to talk about does not cease its existence and IMHO only perpetuates its festering in the background.

Too much of what people really believe is taboo these days, because it is no longer politically correct to talk about it. Like it or not, there are plenty of people who are racist, sexist, homophobic, etc out there. But instead of encouraging these people to express their views openly and genuinely; we are moving to a state of society where people can only express their views if they agree with what the publicly held opinion is; even if this opinion may even happen to be in the minority!.

I recognize that many people have argued against giving a voice to those who spread hatred, racism and other negative mantras; but if you are attempting to predicate your society on the basis of equality and liberalist values, you can not eliminate any and all discourse that contradicts the balance of public opinion.

I am not saying this thread is in any way negative or spreading hatred; my argument here solely exists to point out why indeed this discussion is valuable and should be aired.

 

[Block 1]

Earned the right to serve

Let me tell you a story. Its about a Soviet built â Å“Hind Dâ ? attack helicopter that crashed in the rice paddies of Sierra Leone, West Africa, in 2001.

In the back jungles of the KONO on the eastern side of the country.  A Soviet built Hind D with a mercenary pilot lifted off from Kenema. The Hind was under contract with the Sierra Leone Government and working for IMAT, at the time. Three minutes after lift off, the helicopter had a massive tail router failure, and crashed. Out of five personnel, from five different countries aboard the Hind D, only one passed away.  She was a Capt in the UK army, and the only women in the Hind D, bad luck, absolutely. But she gave her live in the service of her country and earned the right to serve as a member of her military, because of her skill as a solider. The four men walked away from the crash without a physical scratch. The bottom line is we earn the right to serve by our actions. If a women earns the right to serve then there is no discussion. We all have the privilege as Canadians to serve our country; consequently, only earn the right to serve by our actions as soldiers. â Å“Soldiers Firstâ ?       
            :soldier:

 

[GIJANE]

GI Jane,
Do you actually read posts before you hit the respond button? Where in the      did you come up with this gem about my statement that when one goes to a trade traditionally occupied by the other sex, one tends to get "noticed?
Quote from GI Jane,
so because because i am a woman i should be a daycare worker? or maybe a nurse? or wait how about a stay at home mommy?? You say you have no problem accepting women in the army but you are quick to single me out by saying "why join the artillery"
I never said why join the artillery, I said if you didn't want to get noticed why did you join the artillery?World of difference there lad, I'm starting to think all you will accept is "Yes Maam, You are 100% correct.
Remember, I agree with you but this is the REAL world after all. :

Quote,
I don't like to be singled out because i'm a female

Well if I may ask, then why in the world did you go Artillery?
To use someone else's anology, I know that if I started working down in Merrickville's day care tomorrow, I would be singled out as change usually is.....and pleeeeeease don't tell me there is not one of you that would not look at me funny when you drop your kids off in our/my care.


Yes i do (sometimes 2 or 3 times  ) my apologies, i guess i misunderstood you somewhere, as for joining the Artillery i didn't think of "getting noticed" when i filled out my application (not that it would have changed my mind anyway) i guess i'm lucky i never experianced harrasment because i was a chick in the combat arms.and to think i wasn't even going to put my two cents in this thread.

Jane

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

We're cool, darn internet nuances.... ;D

 

[GIJANE]

Jane

 

[GSF523]

Hi all well as a female i can see both sides of the story. For instance we had some in our group that thought that she could get over that wall in the obstacle course by herself and in the end was not able to and was injured in the process. For a women to survive the reserves or reg force she has to be like a man in order to get the respect of her peers. i know that I was getting into a job that was male orientated and i knew to take the blows and didn't expect them to help me in anyway. I tried everything until i dropped, while there were others that whined and complained and expected the men to help them and carry almost everything. By the end of The infantry course i had the respect of all, because I didn't expect anyone to do anyhting for me, i did better then some men in there and was the best then all the women in out platoon, they siad i was just like one of the guys.  :threat: I did the best i could and i did excellent, i trained for it before i got into it and came out better but i made sure everyhting was done so that we couldn't get into trouble at all. The other guys didn't like the other girls because they didn't try and did give it their 110% best.

so somew women do belong and some others don't in combat arms.

Jen

 

[mo-litia]

If a women earns the right to serve then there is no discussion.

I beg to differ. There IS a discussion, and it is typical of people who march to the politically correct drum that you wish to assert that there isn't a valid debate taking place when this issue OBVIOUSLY is valid.  That being said, this is turning into a pissing contest between both sides of this issue; and this thread seems to be going in circles.  Trying to marginalize viewpoints that you don not agree with certainly doesn't bring anything worth discussing to the table.

 

[Glorified Ape]

Glorified Ape:

I don't think the expenditures to accomodate women are really as significant as you might think. e.g. I would imagine most base living quaters do have female washroom facilities to comply with civillian building regs, and overseas, well, the Dutch seem to have a pretty good approach with these things, If we can all stop being 6th graders(I know, hard for men) for a few month while in a warzone, it is really a none issue.

You may be right about the costs.

As for 6th graders, they tend to whine alot. Women seem to do that better.  ;D

 

[Infanteer]

Costs for having women deployed overseas with us - about 10 cents for a photocopy of one of those "Women's Bathroom" signs.  They used it when one of them was using the shower ISO.  Bathrooms were shared - it was a little awkward at first when you were pissing in the urinal in the morning and a girl walked by to brush her teeth, but you get used to it.

I know, I said I was leaving, but I just needed to point out a fact.

 

[Glorified Ape]

Costs for having women deployed overseas with us - about 10 cents for a photocopy of one of those "Women's Bathroom" signs.   They used it when one of them was using the shower ISO.   Bathrooms were shared - it was a little awkward at first when you were pissing in the urinal in the morning and a girl walked by to brush her teeth, but you get used to it.

I know, I said I was leaving, but I just needed to point out a fact.

Good point. As I said before, I'm not opposed to women in CA assuming it's practical. I'd prefer to serve in a mixed environment as being surrounded by men 24/7 could get a little old after a while. I think women bring something different to the environment. Not stereotypical girlishness or anything, just a different perspective and such.

 

[Infanteer]

Good point. As I said before, I'm not opposed to women in CA assuming it's practical. I'd prefer to serve in a mixed environment as being surrounded by men 24/7 could get a little old after a while. I think women bring something different to the environment. Not stereotypical girlishness or anything, just a different perspective and such.

Naaah, they don't really bring anything different to the environment.  You just do the mission.

 

[Glorified Ape]

Naaah, they don't really bring anything different to the environment.   You just do the mission.

Fine. Be that way. I'll take your word for it, though, since my only tours have been in Ghost Recon 2, Counter-Strike, and Firearms.

 

[Infanteer]

I'm not trying to be a dink.

We had two female soldiers on my camp of about 150.   They weren't a big impact at all.   Plus, we were pretty busy with ops, so it was never really an issue.   At the sharp end, it really is unnoticable (which is why I've been claiming all along that the issue is a non-starter for me).   The only time I noticed a difference is when the Maple Leaf and a bunch of other press types came by the camp - they wanted a picture of a "female" for some reason so we marched the clerk out of her office and put her, with her rifle, on the gate for the cameras, despite the fact that the clerk never did a gate shift the entire tour.... ???

I'm sure it was different at the NSE holiday ground in VK though.   There was a much larger percentage of females (because it was a CSS base) and they really seemed to be having a great time with mess parties, organized activities, etc, etc.  We replaced 2 Vandoo in theater and one Corporal told me that it was "Camp Love" - I'll let you guess why.  We thought it was a bonus that we could get up once a month for a game of floor hockey - these guys had a league....

If you're an Infantry Officer, you aren't going to see any real impact of throwing females into the mix.

 

[Jarnhamar]

And on a side note, the reservist company won the hockey tournament for roto 13
After all the practice the NSE and friends got, i thought they would win for sure 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Well, I just got back after a couple of days away and caught up on the thread. All I can say is it's gotten really, really, really old. Same old, reserve/reg bashing, "he said she said", myriads of tangents and still no ( and never will have) consensus. It just keeps going round and round with nothing new or concrete. It's simply become a place to people to vent and argue, not discuss. I personally think it's outlived whatever usefullness it ever had.

 

[Loadmaster]

If this was not mentioned already... bring 2 of all toiletteries, one to look good on the shelf for your every day inspection, and one for usage.
I am assuming you are about to be on your   basic...

Thats funny, When I taught there, I had a lot of recruits that tried that but I made the ones in my section use theirs and I checked them everyday. Maybe I'm an ***hole but a lot of recruits look for the least amount of work possible and Its funny when they think that they are fooling their instructors.

Its not everyone but you always have a few lazy people on every course.