Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]

[combat_medic]

Ombudsman Office Report 2003-2004:

http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/reports/annual/2003-2004-toc_e.asp

Received 2186 complaints. Of those;

100 were about sexual harassment
21 were about discrimination
4 were about sexual assault

CF Personnel Newsletter

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/6_03/6_03_helpline_e.asp

From 1998-2003, the DND/CF Harassment/Sexual Assault Help Line has fielded over 3000 calls about sexual harrassment and assault.

I'm still finding more numbers, but I would say this in itself is pretty telling.

 

[TCBF]

"There, I said it, since I don't have a horse in this race."

If you are a Canadian, then it's your Army.  I don't own it, I'm just in it.  We each have one of 32,000,000 shares in it.  Too bad most are non-voting shares.

Tom

 

[qor556]

I think the unspoken implication is that Reserves=Lower standards=more women. 

So thus you are implying the women in the reserves are of lesser "quality" than your "kind". I would like to see some proof of that, as we all know you cannot make a statement without backing it up with some real evidence... or would you rather arm wrestle over it? ;D

 

[dutchie]

Ombudsman Office Report 2003-2004:

Received 2186 complaints. Of those;
100 were about sexual harassment
21 were about discrimination
4 were about sexual assault

So that works out to less than 6% of all complaints to the ombudsman were related sexual harrassment/discrimination/assualt. You're proving my point - Harrassment is not a big problem in the CF.

CF Personnel Newsletter

From 1998-2003, the DND/CF Harassment/Sexual Assault Help Line has fielded over 3000 calls about sexual harrassment and assault.

That's 600 calls/year. Again, is it just me or is that pretty low? I imagine that a lot of those are multiple calls for the same incident (follow-up), eroneous calls, info-calls, etc.

I'm still finding more numbers, but I would say this in itself is pretty telling.

Your right - it is very telling. It confirms what I said: Sexual harrassment/discrimination/assault is not a major issue in the CF. I think it's time you owned up to it.

 

[ZipperHead]

I will make an observation here (and it plays into Infanteer's comments on group dynamics): In my experience and what I have observed of the Reserves is that sometimes it is a glorified social club (not unlike cadets). [Just to clarify, I was never in the Reserves, but I was in cadets for 5 years, and in that time I knew a lot of guys that were in both, and as well I have talked to a lot of guys in the Regs that did time in the Reserves.]

The cliques that exist within a unit (be it Reserves, Reg, cadets) can make or break it, but within the Regs, there are always people coming and going (postings, releases), particularly with the higher echelons. Within the Reserves, progression at the lower rank levels can be faster due to higher turnaround, but by the same token, at the higher ranks you have to wait for people to die or retire before you can move up. Therefore, the leadership is fairly constant, for better or worse. People in the Reserves, esp. in small towns will pretty much know anybody coming in, and if they don't want them there, they can freeze them out. In a small town, there may only be one Reserve unit, of any of the elements. In larger towns, and esp. the big cities, you can choose a unit based on personalities, types of training opportunities, colour of hat, mess, whatever. As well, Reserve units (in my view, anyway) are like cadet corps: all about the numbers. If you lose numbers, you lose money, you lose positions, etc, so I think that they are more willing to bring aboard anyone they can, and leery to boot people. Again, this is only an observation on my part, and if I'm dead wrong, I'm sure I'll be set straight. In the Reg force, particularly the training system, it is sometimes no different. The pass rate means everything (to some people), and having somebody fail isn't an option sometimes. I worked in a situation like this, and it wasn't a good scene. Having a system where everybody passes doesn't produce good "product" except maybe for certain people's PER and career progression  :

In the Regs, most times you have zero choice on where you will initially be posted, a lot of people (mostly Combat Arms types) get suckered into their trade (I know a guy who went Crewman, and was under the assumption he would be a crewmember on a plane..... boy was he shocked, and he had to ride out a 3 year contract, to boot). People in Reg Force units, for the most part, come from different backgrounds, different provinces, have no idea who will be in their new unit, except maybe for the guys they just finished training with, so they are all "fresh meat" when they get to a unit, and have to fit in. Most do, some don't, and we don't have the luxury of turning our kit in the next parade night if the going gets tough. Adjusting is a fact of life.
 
I know that people can be fairly defensive about their unit (I have worn 4 different hat badges, so I am somewhat jaded.....), but I think that people's attitudes need to change (male/female, black/white, gay/straight, Reserve/Reg), and acknowledging that things need to change is usually a good thing. RTC at all costs, in any regard, isn't very productive, and can be destructive to a unit.

I was kind of all over the place on this one, but I think it may help clarify (or muddy the waters) on what my wife posted: it seems the Reserves (from the people who post here anyway) are having the most difficulty accepting this change. Again, it could be that they don't want to bring aboard unfamiliar people, and as the leadership remains more static than in Reg units, certain attitudes can get passed down from higher on up down to the bottom. Freezing somebody out with the Reserves is much easier than in the Regs, and as most people (esp. the leadership) in the Regs are "lifers", policies brought down have to be enforced, and if you choose not to, you're done. You can't just pack up your macaroni box and go rely on your primary job (if you have one) for food and rent like Reservists have the option of doing if they don't like a policy. There are a lot of people who have taken their release rather than put up with some of the new policies that have come out, but I would say most people with 10+ years in have their eye on their pension and will put up with pretty much anything to get there. Just because you have to live with a policy and enforce it doesn't mean you have to like it, but it helps (especially being convincing to subordinates.....).

If anybody feels offended that I "dissed" the Reserves, tough. These are my opinions on what I have observed, both within and without the Regs, which most Reservists haven't been able to, esp. the young ones. You don't have to agree, and no doubt somebody will be put out, saying "My unit isn't like that!!!!". Well, great. But, again, look at who has been the most vocal about it here (from who I have been able to ID), and yes some Regs are quite firmly in the "no" camp, but a lot of that has to do with being of a different generation (take that however you will......). Call me on it, and you'll probably be pulling bootlaces out of your braces (your own bootlaces, that is... ie foot-in-mouth disease).

Al

 

[Jarnhamar]

We know how much you love the Reserves Al. I'm sure you would love to be posted RSS staff at a reserve unit

I think that they are more willing to bring aboard anyone they can, and leery to boot people.

I think you're 100% right with that comment and the rest of your post.
The reserves are absolutely hurting for troops. Troops on parade DO equal money.
Too few troops training and regiments loose money.  Regiments loose money and reserve soldiers can't take courses. Training goes down the drain.  Troops look at how shitty the training is and the lack of employment and quit.  Even less troops on parade. Now sait reserve regiment that gets paid for being considered a battalion, now gets paid for being a company.
Cycle starts over again.

Troops that probably shouldnt pass, pass.

Regarding a soldier becomming pregnant and recoursed. While i don't really agree with it (That is, a reg force soldier being put in holding platoon and a reserve soldier being pushed along) I think the reasons why it happens are obvious. The reserves don't have a holding platoon.  Where someone can sit on their ass playing video games or sweeping in the holding platoon and get paid big bucks for it, an untrained reserve soldier is pretty damn useless.

The lower standard for the reserves means more below standard soldiers. Theres many more female reserve soldiers than regular force soldiers, probably both from physical standards and the acceptence by their peers.

As for the old boys club. I think it has it's pros and cons.  It's shitty when a good soldier gets passed up for a course or tasking in favor of someone who has friends in high places but at the same time, i think it's good to be able to push useless soldiers out of the reserves as fast as possible.

 

[ZipperHead]

Ref the calls to the Ombudsman on harrassment: just because somebody makes a call to the Hotline, does that mean they've been "harrassed". Or does it mean that they feel they've been harrassed. An example, "My MCpl told me my boots sucked. That's harrassment!!!". Or sexual harrassment or discrimination: "I've been passed over for promotion because I'm female (or male)!!!" Those are perceptions of harrassment, not harrassment, and I'd be curious if these numbers are confirmed cases, or ones that are just logged for the sake of keeping people happy.

[Thanks for the link combat_medic, I just read it, and thought I would share a little bit with the rest of the gang]

The Line, launched in May 1998, has provided assistance and guidance to almost 3000 callers, demonstrating that CF members and DND employees today have a heightened comfort level with regard to sharing their concerns about harassment. In the beginning, most calls were made by women who felt they were targets of sexual harassment or assault. Today, the majority of calls concern harassment of a non-sexual nature, and the Line now receives more calls from men than from women.

I doubt you read the bit that I highlighted and italicized, but there it is.

Regarding the whole issue with the "virtually all women in CF" and harrassment, I think it should be expected that you are going to receive a certain amount of harrassment, be it sexual or otherwise. Is it right? No. Do you have to accept it? No. Complain if you want, but expect consequences of some form, be it being shut out or at the least ridiculed. I have been sexually harrassed by women in the CF (good heavens!!), but if I were to complain about it, I would get laughed out of whomever's office I put the complaint into. Men can't be sexually harrassed, it seems, much like it seems only whites are capable of racism (in our N American society, anyway). I wouldn't say I was traumatized, but I remember it distinctly, and at the time it was funny, in a way, but I am certainly put off by the whole double standard aspect of that it's only men who can be found guilty of harrassment, it seems (I can think of only one example where it wasn't the case).

Without getting into too many details, to protect the not so innocent, we had a CSS member in our unit who had sex with a member of the opposite sex on exercise (consensual). The CSS pers was not male, the soldier was, and 2 rank levels below the CSS pers. Take a guess what happened? If you guessed: nothing, you win..... nothing! That cried out for an Ministerial inquiry, but it never happened. Men can't be taken advantage of, apparently. Maybe you can understand why men have a hard time taking the whole thing too seriously. Not that harrassment isn't serious, but it's the degree of harrassment or discrimination that has to be taken into account and/or perspective. It's like a lot of things that people take advantage of: benefits, lawsuits, complaints, etc. The ones who cry "wolf!" falsely or with no real basis to, ruin it for the people who are truly victims.

Al

 

[Britney Spears]

So thus you are implying the women in the reserves are of lesser "quality" than your "kind". I would like to see some proof of that, as we all know you cannot make a statement without backing it up with some real evidence... or would you rather arm wrestle over it? ;D

I implied no such thing. The implication in my post was that lower standards in the reserves means there are MORE women. What part do you require proof of, that reserve cbt arms courses have lower course standards, or that because of this, more women end up in reserve cbt arms units than reg cbt arms units? I think both are abundantly obvious.

If you are a Canadian, then it's your Army.  I don't own it, I'm just in it.  We each have one of 32,000,000 shares in it.  Too bad most are non-voting shares.

i meant the "Reg VS Reserve freshette assisted pissing contest" race.

 

[TCBF]

Oh.  That race.  OK.

So, for the SECOND time:  What the heck is a freshette?

Tom

 

[Infanteer]

I'll agree with Allan L.

I'm willing to wager that the group dynamics in the Reg Force and the Reserve Force are two completely different thing.  Reserves - no obligation and you show up for a few nights a week and one weekend a month.  Reg Force, you are "socialized" into the institution and you live, work, play, and fight in close proximity with your squaddies.  I am going to say that the "group dynamic" that makes it harder for women to fully integrate in the Reg Force isn't as strong in the Reserves.

This isn't a hack or anything, only an observation from someone who has done both the part time and the full time gigs.


Other then that, I am going to withdraw from this conversation as I think it is rapidly approaching the end of its utility and is evolving into a "spin-cycle".  I've voiced my support for females in all branches and I will again assert that I feel that people who say "Get them Out" and people who say "There is no real problems, it is only men who hate women" are both in the wrong as they refuse to address other factors that may be at play.  I hope that, as the years go by, we can look at these factors and deal with them in a way that, while not making everybody happy, will satisfy everyone and stick to our principles as an institution of the Canadian public and one based on fighting and winning battles.

With that, Gentlemen and Ladies, I am signing off.

Cheers,
Infanteer

 

[Pte. Bloggins]

So, for the SECOND time: What the heck is a freshette?

Tom

The Freshette (since so many were curious) is labeled as the "feminine urinary director". Basically a funnel with a hose. More information here:
http://www.freshette.com/ with pictures and ordering information.

There you are.

 

[TCBF]

Freshette directions:  ..."stand with your back to the wind"...

Amazing the facts us guys take for granted.  Might as well tell a guy to remember to plug in the toaster before calling the repairman.

But; Can you write your name in the snow with it?  Well, can you?  Huh?



Tom

 

[Britney Spears]

Now that she's gone,  I'll bet you anything that Infanteer is actually a woman. Certainly that was my first thought on this thread, why else would anyone specificly use the gender neutral term "Infanteer", a word essentially invented by the PC police  in order to accomodate women,  as a moniker?


;D ;D ;D

 

[qor556]

I implied no such thing. The implication in my post was that lower standards in the reserves means there are MORE women. What part do you require proof of, that reserve cbt arms courses have lower course standards, or that because of this, more women end up in reserve cbt arms units than reg cbt arms units? I think both are abundantly obvious.

[/quote

May be so, but from your previous comment I am still understanding that there are MORE below-standard women in the reserves. Hmm..

Ah whatever its not a big deal.

As for that little freshette device... so where do you keep this little device on you? In your Tac Vest?? I'm just imagining how amusing it would be to explain what it is if accidentally found during an inspection 

 

[TCBF]

Mad Max - in our office - asked basically the same thing.  Being a 011 CREWMAN, I had no cat in that fight.  Heh-heh.

Tom

 

[combat_medic]

Fine, more statistics, since it seems to make everyone happy (although no one has bothered to substantiate the "nay" side with any evidence other than heresay).

http://www.dnd.ca/hr/harassment/engraph/1998_survey.pdf

In 1998, 29% of women admitted to being subjected to an abuse of authority in the past 12 months, 30% admitted to personal harassment, 14% admitted to sexual harassment, and 2% admitted to being hazed. The average nuber of times women admitted to being sexually harassed in the past year is 11. Unfortunately there are not any more recent surveys, but I was say that 84% is a pretty overwhelming majority, wouldn't you?

 

[TCBF]

You can't just add up all the numbers and get 84%.  There is obviously a lot of crossover.  In one bad incident, a person could answer "Yes" to all of those categories.

Tom

 

[LF(CMO)]

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:  i didn't know whether to post this here or under the P'assionate Eye'.  The Adjutant General of the Vermont National Guard (in effect the State CO) is Gen. Martha Rainville. (Rainville is a Francophone surname)  My cousin, a Retd Lt Col., says that she is very capable and well respected.
Vermont has the second highest % of deployment.  They have a high % in the "Guard' vis-a-vis their small population.  They have an F-16 fighter Sqd, an Armored Batt, a Mountain Coy, an Engineering Coy among other units.
 Google the 'St Albans Messenger' or 'Burlington Free Press' for VNG info if interested.  They have done Trg with the troops from St Jean as St Albans is only about 45 Miles south of there.  There was an article in the St A Messenger today with Gen Rainville haveing a meetng with the famlies.  They were talking 'the Guard is a family', I thought of our Regt System.

 

[combat_medic]

You know what, yes, everyone in the CF has no doubt been the victim of direct and indirect harrasment, discrimination, and other forms of mistreatment. Yes, the men are included. The CF is doing what they can to combat this, and hopefully the people with legitimate complaints will come forward so that the problems can be dealt with. In general, I still think that the treatment of women and other minority groups has a long way to go, and until such a time as the attitudes change about their presence in the military, the general mistreatment will continue.

Argue as much as you will, the people who don't like it will always find a reason not to like it, and there's precious little that can be done to change their minds. Until such a time as everyone is on equal footing, I'm going to keep doing my job, and do what I can to make the woman who comes after me have an easier go than I have. This thread has spent over 30 pages of driving in circles, and no one is going to change anyone's mind with words. It's obviously pointless to argue opinions. I've said my peace, and I'm signing off.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

You know what, yes, everyone in the CF has no doubt been the victim of direct and indirect harassment, discrimination, and other forms of mistreatment. Yes, the men are included. The CF is doing what they can to combat this, and hopefully the people with legitimate complaints will come forward so that the problems can be dealt with. In general, I still think that the treatment of women and other minority groups has a long way to go, and until such a time as the attitudes change about their presence in the military, the general mistreatment will continue.

Argue as much as you will, the people who don't like it will always find a reason not to like it, and there's precious little that can be done to change their minds. Until such a time as everyone is on equal footing, I'm going to keep doing my job, and do what I can to make the woman who comes after me have an easier go than I have. This thread has spent over 30 pages of driving in circles, and no one is going to change anyone's mind with words. It's obviously pointless to argue opinions. I've said my peace, and I'm signing off.

      The funny thing about harassment, is that it is out there, in roughly equal proportions to the amount of whining by those who only feel persecuted.  We had a recruit on our basic course, who was East Indian, and thought that he was being harassed because he was East Indian.  Actually, he couldn't even be taught to march, almost sawed the range NCO in half by holding the Stirling trigger down and burning a half-clip as he turned around to see what the shouting was about (it was the command to "make safe" if memory serves), and committed every dumb recruit mistake known to man.  One day he walked into one of the barracks rooms where a bunch of us were doing boots, and was told to "P**s off", he responded by claiming we were racist, which we agreed to accept.  He took two steps to leave before storming back and pointing to the black and Filipino recruits sitting with us and demanded to know if we were prejudiced, why were they allowed, to which the Filipino recruit shouted back, "because we're prejudiced too, we f***ing hate white people!".  The obvious absurdity was lost on him.  He felt persecuted because of his race, and that is how he viewed all criticism, so he failed.  We had four females who did have to put up with a bit more crap than the rest of us, and none of them developed a persecution complex, and all of them completed the course, two ending as Sigs like us, and two in logistics.  There is prejudice in humanity.  There is prejudice in the army.  Soldiers are largely tough enough to push through it.  The worst and most persistant prejudice I have ever encountered is the ancient Regforce prejudice against Reservists.  Thank the gods the politicians haven't twigged into that one, or I'm sure someone would have included it in the persecutable minority laws somewhere between the retarded-lesbians and transsexual dwarves.  There is not a person in the armed forces who is not persecuted for something, and if it has not happened to you, try walking across a university campus sometime, and I'm sure someone will be along shortly to fix that.  Female soldiers, like every other new group, on the whole, have opted to shut up and soldier, lets leave them to it.