Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

[Eye In The Sky]

Knowledge. The shooter had intimate knowledge of the area, passable roads and tracks. Location of police Dets, etc.

Mobility and freedom of movement: favoured the shooter. He moved at will and in any desired direction.

Cam, concealment and confusion. All favoured the shooter.

Like many rural areas, this one had access to major highways, secondary highways, back roads, blacktracks…you name it. Those roads can lead to any and all directions. Heading to NB? Heading to Pugwash? Heading to Halifax? Who knew during the early stages. Dark. Confusion. “Fog of war”

I watched the video today with the Commission members announcement. “We do not lay blame but we will call blame something else and name it that way” was my thoughts.

I’ll always have an issue with “those who can and did” being judged by “those who can’t and never will”, after the fact.

 

[Booter]

It’s the Canadian way. Because you’re in a lull spend less and less- enjoy complacency, spend less- get away with not having enough a few times. Make that few times the norm.

Act like everything is okay. Act like everyone is safe and they’re being looked after. Close sole positions. Make one guy do two jobs- nothing happens.

Then something does after years of watching everything rust. And everyone is shocked that the old rusty system that they ignored, underfunded, and took for granted didn’t work.

During that free fall a long parade of politicians and politician cops assured everyone they could do it cheaper by being “smarter” which was nonsense. But most of them get to retirement before the system folds.

 

[brihard]

Knowledge. The shooter had intimate knowledge of the area, passable roads and tracks. Location of police Dets, etc.

Mobility and freedom of movement: favoured the shooter. He moved at will and in any desired direction.

Cam, concealment and confusion. All favoured the shooter.

Like many rural areas, this one had access to major highways, secondary highways, back roads, blacktracks…you name it. Those roads can lead to any and all directions. Heading to NB? Heading to Pugwash? Heading to Halifax? Who knew during the early stages. Dark. Confusion. “Fog of war”

I watched the video today with the Commission members announcement. “We do not lay blame but we will call blame something else and name it that way” was my thoughts.

I’ll always have an issue with “those who can and did” being judged by “those who can’t and never will”, after the fact.

No police service with rural coverage could have handled that. The first response was four members. There were already more crime scenes than members, multiple fires burning, and an active shoooter God knows where, with unclear intentions and resolve. All of the initial resources had to be thrown into the hunt.

The commission’s findings correctly identify a lot of things that needed to be done, but they don’t realize how many dozens of police would have needed to be almost immediately available to even begin doing them. With the shooter at large, every task would have to be a team, every angle of a given scene a team. All this ant night, in the dark, with nearly anll officers unfamiliar with the area. Evacuation? Total non-starter. A major municipal service with all its bodies on the road would have struggled to resource this. It was an absolute worst case scenario. The only correct answer initially was to hunt the shooter. Granted, some very initial gathering of witness evidence needs to be a part of that. When my organization trains for active shooter, contact teams will push past everything and everyone and move to the threat; follow on force will come in as soon behind as possible, deal with wounded and witnesses and start feeding up info. But it’s extremely rare to be able to pull enough members away from normal duties to really exercise that. I’m fortunate to be part of a part time team that does.

Absolutely, mistakes were made, omissions happened and weren’t caught in time… I believe each individual did the best they could in the circumstances, but within an overall structure and system that couldn’t possibly do everything that should be done in the early phases of such an incident. I’m not saying no police service or district could have handled it better; maybe some could. I don’t believe any could have handled it to the satisfaction of the commission.

 

[Dana381]

Would the Maritimes ever make a regional police force? The three provinces tend to work together in many ways. There is/was an agreement by the three provinces to use the Atlantic Police Academy in Summerside for their training.

Having a maritime vs provincial police service would allow for larger buying power and some services like the lab and aircraft could be centralized to save money.

I don't think any of the maritime provinces could afford their own provincial police.

 

[brihard]

Would the Maritimes ever make a regional police force? The three provinces tend to work together in many ways. There is/was an agreement by the three provinces to use the Atlantic Police Academy in Summerside for their training.

Having a maritime vs provincial police service would allow for larger buying power and some services like the lab and aircraft could be centralized to save money.

I don't think any of the maritime provinces could afford their own provincial police.

I could conceivably see that.

 

[mariomike]

Some interesting pan-policing recommendations in there such as adopting a three year bachelor’s degree model for police recruits, where police training is integrated within the degree (Finland’s model).

Sounds familiar.

Since 1975,

In Ontario, any person who would like to become a paramedic must attend a recognized college or university paramedic program. All accredited college and university Primary Care Paramedic programs are 2 years in length.

 

[CBH99]

No police service with rural coverage could have handled that. The first response was four members. There were already more crime scenes than members, multiple fires burning, and an active shoooter God knows where, with unclear intentions and resolve. All of the initial resources had to be thrown into the hunt.

The commission’s findings correctly identify a lot of things that needed to be done, but they don’t realize how many dozens of police would have needed to be almost immediately available to even begin doing them. With the shooter at large, every task would have to be a team, every angle of a given scene a team. All this ant night, in the dark, with nearly anll officers unfamiliar with the area. Evacuation? Total non-starter. A major municipal service with all its bodies on the road would have struggled to resource this. It was an absolute worst case scenario. The only correct answer initially was to hunt the shooter. Granted, some very initial gathering of witness evidence needs to be a part of that. When my organization trains for active shooter, contact teams will push past everything and everyone and move to the threat; follow on force will come in as soon behind as possible, deal with wounded and witnesses and start feeding up info. But it’s extremely rare to be able to pull enough members away from normal duties to really exercise that. I’m fortunate to be part of a part time team that does.

Absolutely, mistakes were made, omissions happened and weren’t caught in time… I believe each individual did the best they could in the circumstances, but within an overall structure and system that couldn’t possibly do everything that should be done in the early phases of such an incident. I’m not saying no police service or district could have handled it better; maybe some could. I don’t believe any could have handled it to the satisfaction of the commission.

Well said!!

I totally agree. By the time the overall situation was making itself known, there were already more crime scenes than members.

That initial fog of war would have severely hampered a response regardless of what agency was handling it. Multiple victims, multiple fires, no idea what the motive of the shooter is, what direction they could be going since the individual crime scenes were so spread out…and nobody would be expecting the shooter to be driving a damn good replica of an RCMP cruiser or wearing an RCMP uniform.

Given the number of officers who were on at the time, the sheer magnitude of victims needing help, various related things needing responding to, etc there already weren’t enough officers on to remotely handle it all.

In addition to all that, we still need to spare enough people to go hunt the shooter.

(Let’s not forget the regular 911 call volume that can’t go ignored either)


I couldn’t agree more with everything you said Brihard, and how you said it.

 

[brihard]

Well said!!

I totally agree. By the time the overall situation was making itself known, there were already more crime scenes than members.

That initial fog of war would have severely hampered a response regardless of what agency was handling it. Multiple victims, multiple fires, no idea what the motive of the shooter is, what direction they could be going since the individual crime scenes were so spread out…and nobody would be expecting the shooter to be driving a damn good replica of an RCMP cruiser or wearing an RCMP uniform.

Given the number of officers who were on at the time, the sheer magnitude of victims needing help, various related things needing responding to, etc there already weren’t enough officers on to remotely handle it all.

In addition to all that, we still need to spare enough people to go hunt the shooter.

(Let’s not forget the regular 911 call volume that can’t go ignored either)


I couldn’t agree more with everything you said Brihard, and how you said it.

My best friend from high school, later one of my groomsmen joined the RCMP and was posted to NS at the time. I remember that next morning texting him, asking if he knew anything about this bad call we were starting to hear about. His answer was along the lines of “yeah I just got called in and am headed there now, we don’t know much except it sounds like it might be really bad with some fires and several victims”. I infer from that that, by early the next morning, it was still a very difficult to define situation and the backup members were going in half blind.

 

[Booter]

Would the Maritimes ever make a regional police force? The three provinces tend to work together in many ways. There is/was an agreement by the three provinces to use the Atlantic Police Academy in Summerside for their training.

Having a maritime vs provincial police service would allow for larger buying power and some services like the lab and aircraft could be centralized to save money.

I don't think any of the maritime provinces could afford their own provincial police.

I don’t see it but I’m no expert.

As much as Nova Scotia is fighting up hill with funding- there is almost no conceivable reason they would hitch their wagon to the most derelict and poor province law enforcement map- new bruinswick.

PEI is well satisfied. RNC is too historic. There is no benefit to Nova Scotia to attach itself to NB. Maybe they would consider PEI but there is no need for it on either end.

Cape Breton regional already has years where it gains ground and loses it- NB has had multiple agency rollovers in the last thirty years back and forth.

And the Atlantic police college is a
Public college that has an arrangement with police services. They are an extension of a post secondary public school,

Which if you deal with curriculums this is an important distinction. In the grand scheme it doesn’t mean much in a practical sense because they can make police officers how ever they like- Sask has a similar but slightly different system- what it does demonstrate is that the Atlantic governments aren’t even at the first step of creating larger organizations.

Sharing aircraft for several islands sounds like you need one for all the islands- so your bulk purchase savings could just be had by the provinces buying a couple aircraft together. unless you intend on having one plane for all those shorelines and communities- in that case youre redesigning shitty service.

 

[Booter]

My whole life I thought NFLD was included in the Maritimes. This thread taught me something. And I’m from CAPE BRETON lol

Thank you Dana381

That said- RNC does use the Atlantic police academy as well depending on the year.

 

[Booter]

My air services objections are totally wrong- looking at the RCMP air services out there they aren’t organized how I thought so my comments are totally uneducated/ wrong on the aircraft comment.

RCMP Flight Operations Program Evaluation | Royal Canadian Mounted Police

 

[Good2Golf]

I don't think any of the other three maritime provinces could afford their own provincial police.

There you go.

 

[BrianWL]

Whose? If you mean the Mounties, no, not at all. I’m not aware of any service with that as a contract condition.

There’s a pretty comprehensive list of comparable first class constable base salaries here: The Repository

RCMP are down around 46th or so. The list jostles a lot depending on who’s signed a new collective agreement most recently.

going way way back, the rumor net indicated that the RCMP would be compared in pay rate with the 10 largest police forces (oooopsie Services) in Canada, so - the Horsepeople, Toronto, Montreal, OPP, SdeQ and down the line. Mounties were supposed to be 6th in pay within this grouping. Having no collective bargaining unit until the 2020's......this went to the wayside.....if in fact it ever existed,,,,,

 

[CBH99]

My whole life I thought NFLD was included in the Maritimes. This thread taught me something. And I’m from CAPE BRETON lol

Thank you Dana381

That said- RNC does use the Atlantic police academy as well depending on the year.

Isn’t Newfoundland (NFLD) included in the Maritimes? I tried scrolling up thread, couldn’t see where it was mentioned that NFLD isn’t a maritime province…

But what else could it possibly be, if not the most iconic maritime province of them all?


(I swear a Newfie accent is almost impossible to fake. It’s more like a language of its own, with its own way of annunciating words & its own cute unique phrases - mixed with an absolutely charming speech impediment)

 

[kratz]

Maritimes provinces: NB, NS and PEI

Atlantic provinces: NB, NS, NL and PEI

 

[Halifax Tar]

It is my opinion that the Nova Scotia incident is almost peerless internationally in police operations and any rural manhunt off similar details prior to this incident would have looked the same for a long period. Regardless of agency, especially any rural place with a similar crime index. We don’t have to agree, opinions and assholes etc.

That highlighted bit is very relevant. I mean this was essentially a wild west man hunt across hundreds of square KMs...

 

[Dana381]

I don’t see it but I’m no expert.

As much as Nova Scotia is fighting up hill with funding- there is almost no conceivable reason they would hitch their wagon to the most derelict and poor province law enforcement map- new bruinswick.

There is a maritime identity of sorts that distinguishes it from Upper Canada. While I see your point adding New Brunswick should lower each provinces cost by way of volume savings

PEI is well satisfied. RNC is too historic. There is no benefit to Nova Scotia to attach itself to NB. Maybe they would consider PEI but there is no need for it on either end.

I agree RNC is too historic and also NFLD is not really in that maritime identity I mentioned. P.E.I. likes to save money more than anything. If it appeared cheaper they would dive in.

Cape Breton regional already has years where it gains ground and loses it- NB has had multiple agency rollovers in the last thirty years back and forth.

I don't understand this paragraph, I'm not up on CB or NB policing issues but couldn't a regional service that is more in touch with maritime issues than Ottawa be sold as a way to help correct those issues?

And the Atlantic police college is a
Public college that has an arrangement with police services. They are an extension of a post secondary public school,

Ther is/was some sort of agreement by the provinces to exclusively use the APA. I remember Holland College taking legal action because Halifax was wanting to train their own cadets. I can't find the article right now. It was some time before I moved in 2014.

Sharing aircraft for several islands sounds like you need one for all the islands- so your bulk purchase savings could just be had by the provinces buying a couple aircraft together. unless you intend on having one plane for all those shorelines and communities- in that case youre redesigning shitty service.

Isn't that what governments do best

I was envisioning central basing say Moncton Airport and multiple assets to cover the area. Moncton cant be much more than an hour in a King Air size aircraft from anywhere in the maritimes. If NS makes their own provincial police service the RCMP air service to NB and PEI will likely get worse.

I don't live there anymore and I have no idea if there is sufficient political will to ever get something like this going. I was just spitballig an idea. I see it as a possible option for NS to separate itself from the RCMP in the wake of Portapique. I don't know if NB or PEI are scared or disgusted enough to jump on board or not.

 

[Dana381]

There you go.

The Maritimes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Booter]

I don't understand this paragraph, I'm not up on CB or NB policing issues but couldn't a regional service that is more in touch with maritime issues than Ottawa be sold as a way to help correct those issues?

Just that they individually are not committed to their agencies- they are committed to what’s cheaper that year.

then there is an incident- such as the murder of a highway patrol officer like in New Bruinswick- then they switch it back to the RCMP. A decade goes by- the government switches- someone says we can do this cheaper on our own or mentions that it’s former agency was a point of pride…it switches to a provincial solution…then there is an incident…

I guess my long winded post never gets around to explaining my idea that the east coast, even more than the rest of Canada- does not commit on law enforcement.
The RNC hasn’t taken all of NFLD. They ran into cost and manpower issues- the will to truly be the service isn’t there.

A while ago I was part of conversation on radio infrastructure for two provinces out that way. They were looking at upgrading a network. Trying to do it possibly as a set so they had some interoperability.

They were provided a cost to make a network together, and one to go
On their own.

One province- who had multiple identified issues. Like they were living in the Stone Age. they had initiated the feasibility study because they knew there was a massive risk in their coms- at the end selected “do nothing” and the idea collapsed. Too expensive.

If “addressing police service” was a spectrum of one to ten. The east coast appetite would be a zero. Until 1997 the RNC carried their sidearms in the trunk of their cars and needed permission to arm themselves because it was their policy. Even knowing this was a police and public safety issue. Their custom was more important than their effectiveness. They did sort that out- but that’s just over 25 years ago. And it was debated whether to change it.

In my opinion from thousands of kms
Away with no special knowledge.

I believe my opinion is worthless anyways after my failure of high school social studies and what the maritimes is

I guess your point is the regional force might be cheaper- but I don’t see it the upfront infrastructure costs would keep any government out there from going in- based off what I saw before. But it could happen with enough out rage if they do- It won’t be more effective for sure. It’ll have the same issues- it’ll just be a regional black eye instead of a federal
One.

 

[mariomike]

Public Safety Canada work with provinces and territories to establish a three-year degree-based model of police education for all police services in Canada.

What are the chances of that happening?