106mm Recoilles Rifle

[Haggis]

Iltis and GWagons were never designed to take the M79 mounts... you'd have a hell of a time fitting it to either vehicle.

It would not be good to roof mount onto a RG31 or LAVIII.  While we did have 'em on top of the M113s, the crew was extremely exposed and there wasn't an equivalent to TUA for the 106.

Quite right, Geo.  The biggest hurdle to re-introducing the 106 is mobility.  The damn thing is awkward and HEAVY!

The vehicle has to be open topped to allow engagements throughout 270 degrees and should have some protection from SA fire for the crew (i.e. gun shields).  Because of the weight of the system with ammo (about 1000 lbs battle loaded) and the backblast, I doubt an ILITS would've lasted for more than a few rounds before parts flew off, the timing belt skipped and it chugged to a deathly halt.

 Could it be welded onto the back of a pickup truck - yeah, sure but I am not sure of the benefits to such a move...........

Our southern brethren have apparently mounted it on a HMMVW.  In any case, reliable mobility is a MUST as once an engagement begins, the crew has no concealment and no capability for self protection.    Once you'd seen this thing in action, you'd understand. 

I remember 106mm just coming out of service (as far the ammo world goes) when I joined.  A few years later, early 90s, 93 I think, we were told that it was coming back in a limited role with the Airborne.

That's true.  The 106 could survive a para-drop much better than the TOW as it had no electronics to screw up/bounce around/submerge in a swamp.  106mm ammo had a theoretical effective range of 2200 metres, but the "best fighting range" was determined by the capablity of the sighting system/weapon/ammo combination of the day.  As I said, 1400 metre kills were quite possible for a skilled, well drilled crew.

The spotting rifle would be ditched and a laser range finder and electronic sight fitted.

If they'd asked me (and nobody did) I would've kept the M8C and added a better optical sight.  Neither needed batteries to operate.

 

[AmmoTech90]

If they'd asked me (and nobody did) I would've kept the M8C and added a better optical sight.  Neither needed batteries to operate.

I think someone was still trying to find a market for that electronic sight they tried to lash onto the Carl G...had some witty name.  Can't remember right now what it was.

D

 

[xFusilier]

CLASS - cant remember what the acronym stood for.

 

[geo]

WRT the 106s planned use with the airborne.
The 106 could survive a drop better than the TOW  AND the L5 pack howitzer that the Airborne Arty bty had for a while
They did play around with laser sighting and rangefinder, (spotting rifle was cheaper IMHO)
They designed a two wheeled artillery style gun mount that had a low profile and could be towed on the back of a jeep or iltis.  The gun crew could hump it across rough terrain a lot better than that lousy "%$" wheelbarrow mount...

Unfortunately - people were talking about an either / or situation.
Do you want TOW or do you want the 106.......

(still; a fun piece of kit)

 

[ArmyRick]

Don't quote me on this but i beleive an infantry journal in 94 or 95 featured the potential return of tthe 106mm with a new round and the CLASS. I think (emphasis on think) it stood for computerized laser assisted sight system. Any old CTC guys out there who were part of the trials might be able to confirm this.

 

[vonGarvin]

Although I wasn't on the trial, friends of mine were.  Yes, that was the sight.  They seemed to have fun with it.  But, then again, CLASS or not on it, firing it must have been a hoot.
I remember when I first saw it. It was 1985, I was a private in The Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment at MILCON 85 in Pet.  We were doing "whatever" on the Matawa when some jeeps pulled up with 106's on them.  The crew had "Desert Rat" written all over them!  Figuratively, of course

 

[time expired]

How about ONTOS a small tracked veh. with six 106 R.R. mounted around the hull.I remember
watching,on TV , doing some good work shooting across the Perfume river into Hue during the
Tet offensive.I think it was a US Marine wpns. system and I always wondered where they carried
the ammo. and how they would reload under fire.
                    Regards

 

[Spooks]

The reason for the orginal idea was to see if we could employ anything -already- in our system without needing to put a big expense on it. The ONTOS may look cool, but the Afghanistan mission would be over by the time we get them in service.

As for the loading, from what I've been told, it's all done externally, and with siz lauchers, you shouldn't need to reload if you have groundpounders there with any sort of skill. I'm not a SME, so don't take my thoughts seriously.

 

[Haggis]

I remember when I first saw it. It was 1985, I was a private in The Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment at MILCON 85 in Pet.  We were doing "whatever" on the Matawa when some jeeps pulled up with 106's on them.  The crew had "Desert Rat" written all over them!  Figuratively, of course

"Desert Rats", indeed!  I was a AA Pl Section Comd in '85.  My det had "The Demon" CFR 08666

 

[Red 6]

The Marine Corps used the Ontos in Vietnam but they went out of service a long long time ago. The US Army went out of the recoilless rifle business a long time ago too. We had 90mm recoilless rifles in my unit in Germany back in the 80s, but we never fired them.

 

[1feral1]

I know there are a lot of ordinance buffs out there, so I have come toask of your services.

You must mean ordnance, which has really nothing to do with the word ammo, which is normally referred to as Cartridge, even for the ole 106mm R/R.

This weapon was designed for the 1950's cold war battlefields of Europe. 1950's sights, etc. I had seen it used many times, the last on the A/Tk ranges off of Strathcona Road in Dundurn in the early 1980's. It did pack quite a punch on those old Centurions.

I worked on the 106, first becomming qualified on it in 1977. Australia also had them, and before their destruction in the late 1990's, we had them in war stores, where they still had to be inspected annually. A specially designed Land Rover with an 88 inch wheel base was used.This included the .50 spotter, which had a special cartridge with the same trajectory as the main gun. Not a basic .50 x 99mm cartridge, either. A specially cartridge used in the spotter only, which had a 10rd detachable mag.

Six 'launchers'? Although such a muli barreled weapon was used to some degree by the US in the 1960's, Canada never used such a device.

Our's was a single barrelled device, which was fitted to a M38A1 'Jeep', with split windscreen, and a group fo men could lift it off, and it could be fired static from the ground, but it was designed for 'shoot and scoot' as the signature created was very noticeable.

I do remember a Winnipeg based (RWpgR) 106 Jeep fitted with the gun rolled and killed both members near the Saskatchewan/Manitoba border when the driver fell asleep, back in about 1981. They were part of a convoy after summer concentrations, returning back to their Unit. So, yes as previously posted here, the centre of ballance was an issue. Some members on here might remember that acident, as the BOC when on for  a while, and 12 months later it was still ni the papers.

There was a time that Militia Units such as the RRR and NSaskR had them and used them back in the late 70's and early 1980s.
In my opinion, the weapon is outdated, most have been cut up for scrap years ago, and any of these multi barreled versions will only be found in a US museum.

Again, in my opinion, they'll never return to service in AFG or anywhere else by the west.


Regards,

Wes

 

[GAP]

You mean this little guy....the Onthos?

 

[Red 6]

Roger that Wes. The Marines Corps Museum just finished refurbishing an Ontos for the new display.

 

[geo]

Ontos, not Onthos

From what I was told by an Ontos crew commander, the beast was great when performing a rear guard along a road.  You'd cache some rounds at strategic spots along the road and as you leap frogged back, you'd have your reloads waiting for ya BUT, again, the problem was that the crew were most often exposed to enemy fire... and that's not a good thing.

WRT the 106 and that road accident, yup, remember thereafter having to do admin road moves, to & from armouries  with the gun barrels & tripod in carryalls....... would you believe it, I could fit 4 barrels & tripod into one carryall............. didn't do the leaf springs much good but, it could be done.

 

[Spooks]

Okay, I am gonna relight my supposed closing of interest on this thread.

http://forums.army.ca/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=25878 shows the 106mm getting pulled by an Iltis (?) so they can still be ported around like that, though I was suggested that we use the old M113 converts that look like a truck (flatbed). Is that feasible.
I don't know the characteristics of the 106mm, so I don't understand the backblast and that, so forgive me. I know a lot of you are old 106mm gunners yourself so you have a firsthand knowledge of them.

Today in morning parade I was asked 'Why not just find another round for the CG?' so that got me (again) thinking. Are CG HESH rounds easy to acquire? From my (limitted) lesson on the HESH round theory, it sounds like they would be the answer to my problem and far more easy to get employed than the 106mm idea. I saw on fas.org the AT-4 had a Bunker Deafeat Munition that looked like the HESH round. Anyone still use them?

I was also told the Swede's made a Panzerfaust-like round for the CG and Canada bought a bunch to put them in war stores. Is that true? Would they be good?

 

[Bomber]

I'll aska round here on Tuesday and see if I cna find someone that knows a bit more about where they are and what they are doing.  Everything old is new again, so why not some of this.  Just cause it is dated doesn't mean it is crap.  From Air mattress to to tanks, some times stuff just lasts.

 

[Spooks]

I'll aska round here on Tuesday and see if I cna find someone that knows a bit more about where they are and what they are doing.  Everything old is new again, so why not some of this.  Just cause it is dated doesn't mean it is crap.  From Air mattress to to tanks, some times stuff just lasts.

<sarcasm> Like Ham Streak in Mustard sauce - it's old but they always bring it back like it's new.</sarcasm>

Thanks though. I'm still considered a FNG with my 3yrs, so I don't know all there is with how old things were like or what their new capabilities are. Thanks.

 

[Spooks]

You must mean ordnance, which has really nothing to do with the word ammo, which is normally referred to as Cartridge, even for the ole 106mm R/R.

This weapon was designed for the 1950's cold war battlefields of Europe. 1950's sights, etc. I had seen it used many times, the last on the A/Tk ranges off of Strathcona Road in Dundurn in the early 1980's. It did pack quite a punch on those old Centurions.

I worked on the 106, first becomming qualified on it in 1977. Australia also had them, and before their destruction in the late 1990's, we had them in war stores, where they still had to be inspected annually. A specially designed Land Rover with an 88 inch wheel base was used.This included the .50 spotter, which had a special cartridge with the same trajectory as the main gun. Not a basic .50 x 99mm cartridge, either. A specially cartridge used in the spotter only, which had a 10rd detachable mag.

Six 'launchers'? Although such a muli barreled weapon was used to some degree by the US in the 1960's, Canada never used such a device.

Our's was a single barrelled device, which was fitted to a M38A1 'Jeep', with split windscreen, and a group fo men could lift it off, and it could be fired static from the ground, but it was designed for 'shoot and scoot' as the signature created was very noticeable.

I do remember a Winnipeg based (RWpgR) 106 Jeep fitted with the gun rolled and killed both members near the Saskatchewan/Manitoba border when the driver fell asleep, back in about 1981. They were part of a convoy after summer concentrations, returning back to their Unit. So, yes as previously posted here, the centre of ballance was an issue. Some members on here might remember that acident, as the BOC when on for  a while, and 12 months later it was still ni the papers.

There was a time that Militia Units such as the RRR and NSaskR had them and used them back in the late 70's and early 1980s.
In my opinion, the weapon is outdated, most have been cut up for scrap years ago, and any of these multi barreled versions will only be found in a US museum.

Again, in my opinion, they'll never return to service in AFG or anywhere else by the west.


Regards,

Wes

Thank you very much for the post here, and especially my english skills. In reference to your last sentence about it not making it back in to service, I will note on that.

'Anywhere else by the West' refers to which? It is a term that even I widely use, but what does it truely mean? Is is CAN, GBR, USA, and AUS? Because by Jane's (though I don't know when it quotes) Venezuala bought them for their light vehicle. Don't quote me on any of it as I only saw the heading and did not read further as it did not pertain to what I was looking for.

 

[geo]

Spook,
That pic of yours shows the 106 RR that was being trialed with the laser signt & rangefinder & the towed arty style chasis I was talking about earlier. 

As far as I know, they only cobbled together a couple of weapon mounts like the one on the pic.

They did the trials, which were apparently successful -  but again, it became a discussion about 106 VS TOW instead of as a complement to the TOW.  In the end, the 106s were pulled and Armd defense was stuck using the 84mm Carl Gustav.

 

[a_majoor]

A few thoughts:

CLASS was designed to increase the first round hit probability, and worked well on a lot of different weapons. If I remember right you slid a preprogrammed chip into it which had the ballistic information of the weapons system you were using. Since it had a laser rangefinder and a day/night sight, it gave the gunners a huge advantage over the Mk 1 eyeball and spotting rifle of old.

The recoiless in recoiless rifle is due to accelerating a jet of 4/5 of the propelling charge out the venturi, to match the mass of the shell moving out the other way. You can still see this effect with the 84mm Carl Gustave, which works the same way.

The Germans invented an alternative system in late 1944 called the "High Low Pressure gun" and produced the PAW 600 in very limited numbers before the end of the war. This system does not produce backblast, rather the propelling charge is fired inside the casing, then "bleeds out" through a series of holes in a faceplate, allowing pressure to build up gradually behind the shell (gradually in relative terms) until there is enough pressure to break a shear pin and force the round out the barrel. The M-79 and M-203 use a variation of this system, which is why your arm isn't torn off when you fire a 40mm grenade.

Gun systems have a huge advantage over missiles in that the shell is much smaller and cheaper, allowing you to take more to battle, and the rate of fiire can be much greater than a missile system. These advantages are blurring somewhat with "smart shells" and "Fire and Forget" missiles, but for the present, a weapon like the 106mm Recoiless rifle or a hypothetical reincarnation of the PAW 600 would provide the ability to rapidly engage and supress many types of target. The crew could also select from HE, HEAT-MP or HESH to destroy buildings and bunkers, Flechette rounds to hit enemy in the open, and even smoke to mask our movements,making a gun a very versatile system.

The biggest recoiless rifle to see service use was the 120mm WOMBAT fielded by the UK. It was also mounted on the FV 432 Ranger (similar to the M-113). We "could" mount a recoiless rifle on a Bison, although it would have many of the same + and - points as mounting it on the M-113.

Maybe one day..............