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106mm Recoilles Rifle

Spooks

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I know there are a lot of ordinance buffs out there, so I have come toask of your services.

What I am looking for is ammunition for a 106mm Recoilles Rifle like we used to have. I know some countries still use them, so what do they have for ammo? I ask for different ammo because differnt countries have different specs on their ammo (ie. you know the difference if you have used a Cdn frag and an American M67). I am looking for stats like http://www.pof.gov.pk/products/106mmheatme44a3.htm. And am specifically looking for effective range and penetration. I also am looking for anything other than HEAT, like some new-fandangagled acronym and purpose. Thanks.
 
Spooks said:
What I am looking for is ammunition for a 106mm Recoilles Rifle like we used to have.

I can't help but ask.... Why do you want 106mm ammunition?  Do you have one?
 
A 106mm recoiless rifle, 2 cases of beer, an empty gravel pit and live ammunition. Thats got red neck fun all over it. Count me in  >:D
 
Well we also had a HESH round...some countries might have a straight HE or Flechette/Cannister.

Check on Janes if you have DIN access in either Infantry Weapons Anti-tank section or the Ammo Handbook.

D
 
Spooks said:
What I am looking for is ammunition for a 106mm Recoilless Rifle like we used to have.

AmmoTech90 said:
Check on Janes if you have DIN access in either Infantry Weapons Anti-tank section or the Ammo Handbook.

Can you order on-line through Janes?
 
Just a guess here, but I'm betting he's a grognard, looking for stats for some wargame ;)
 
von Garvin said:
Just a guess here, but I'm betting he's a grognard, looking for stats for some wargame ;)

He's a WHAT???

Well, to me it seems like he is seeking to acquire 106mm ammuntion.  If he does, I want to fire it!!

(signed)
Haggis
Old school 106 gunner.
Has Med Cat to prove it.
 
von Garvin said:
Just a guess here, but I'm betting he's a grognard, looking for stats for some wargame ;)

Damn and here I was Googling various abandoned gravel pits near beer stores ;D
 
Haggis said:
He's a WHAT???
Well, to me it seems like he is seeking to acquire 106mm ammuntion.  If he does, I want to fire it!!
(signed)
Haggis
Old school 106 gunner.
Has Med Cat to prove it.

Heh.... had the pleasure to help DREV dispose of a part of their stockpile while still a 106 gunner - years ago...
 
geo said:
Heh.... had the pleasure to help DREV dispose of a part of their stockpile while still a 106 gunner - years ago...

YEAH!  GOOD TIMES FIRING THE 106, EH?  EH?  SPEAK UP!! YA THINK I'M DEAF OR SOMETHING?
 
Get a hold of a Westie. I was on Yakima Range in the Fall of 90 when they fired their 106's for the last time.

Maybe Westie47 can help you out.

Noneck
 
Haggis...
firing the 106 was a great way of knocking the "snot" right out of ya and clearing your sinuses real good.

Funny thing, between the Infantry thing and the Engineer thing, you'd think that my hearing would be totallyshot - but my kid tells me that it's waaaay too sensitive - even to his whispers.  The Doc tells me that only a couple of frequencies have degraded a little bit....... couldn`t tell ya how I did it though.
 
geo said:
Haggis...
firing the 106 was a great way of knocking the "snot" right out of ya and clearing your sinuses real good.

Funny thing, between the Infantry thing and the Engineer thing, you'd think that my hearing would be totallyshot - but my kid tells me that it's waaaay too sensitive - even to his whispers.  The Doc tells me that only a couple of frequencies have degraded a little bit....... couldn`t tell ya how I did it though.

It sobered ya up right quick too!  Best hangover killer out there.  If you were unlucky enough to be loader, you usually puked by about round three or four.

My hearing isn't too bad, actually.  For me it wasn't the 106 or any of the other loud toys the army let me play with.  It was too much bagpipes!!!  But I really miss the 106.  Damn but that was a good weapons system! 
 
The reason I ask is I need info for a fanciful idea of mine that prolly won'y get fired up the chain, but a fanciful idea nonetheless. Maybe I'll post it here as to get it shot down by other professional (or un-professional in the case of PC) soldiers.

Since we are deploying tanks to the Gan, I was wondering what is the point of it? I've heard things from 'it's an attempt to fight an unconventional war conventially' to 'Hillier is a tanker, so he would naturally support it'. Whatever the reason may be, I will state that it is giving our tank operators experience in their tanks which they might not get otherwise (insert any gravy joke here).

From what I've heard with guys coming back is the CG isn't penetrating the mud huts very well and with their recoil, they are rather inaccurate. The M72 is getting the favor because it's small, man portable, and can easily be passed off to a comrade. We have TOW or LAV-TUAs but what T-72 or higher even exists in the country where such an armor piercing (but expensive round) can effect.

We see that the penetration of the CG isn't the greatest on mud, so we introduce heavy weapons such as the 105mm on the Leopard. However, now we have a heavy weapon at the cost of a lot of maitenance and personel needed to keep it running. I get worried that we will exhaust our financial backing to the mission with them (especially if the govt changes come next election).

So that got a coworker thinking that we need the firepower and that led him to the 106mm recoiless that we used to have. After some easy investigation (checking the DND website) it states we have something like 122 106's with spare parts available in storage and that they are being sold. What a cost effective way to bring firepower to the field if we took them all to the Gan and used them there. That's where I come in.

I was asked to see what ammo there is there because countries still use them. I found the site as I mentioned in my first post, and it states that the HEAT round labelled there doesn't have the penetration power we were looking for, so I asked if anyone knows of any other rounds or any countries that produce a better round than the one depicted.

Since we are beginning to love armor in Afghanistan, a light infantry role is out of the question. (  :( ) So that has me thinking of what you can put it on that isn't as conpicuous as the sound of a rolling tank. Well, in my opinion - anything. The TLAV sould easily take it as it has (in essence before). Not the LAVIII but maybe take the C6 off the Nyala (not RG36). Aside that most of you think the LUVW is a death trap, I do not, and I think it could even go there (though some will say the GWagon may tip over because of its bad wheel base).

That is why I was asking, so now I ask: What is your opinion on the matter?
 
Interesting concept.  Here's some food for thought.

The M40A1/A2 system weighs in at 483 lbs and is 11 ft 2 in long, making it a four man lift.  We generally mounted it on two platfoms, the M113 APC and the modified M38A1 jeep.

One of the biggest problems with the jeep mount was a significant change in the centre of gravity (C of G) for the vehicle/weapon load.  They became very tippy, particularly on uneven terrain.  A second drawback was storage for personal and crew kit and ammunition.  You needed a trailer as you could only reasonably stack six 106 rounds in the jeep.  There was no real easy place to store magazines for the M8C .50 Spotter rifle, so they usually got jammed under a seat.  Not much of a basic load.

The M113 mounting configuration was better with regard to C of G and storage space but, as Geo and I alluded to, the backblast could unsettle even the hardiest of engines and electronics.  On the down side, the crew was completely exposed, some six feet above ground, making it imperative that a hull down firing position be adopted whenever possible.  Because the crew had to exit the APC and get up top, crash actions were much slower than with a jeep mounted system.

WRT ammuntion, there is little difference between the terminal function of a 106 mm HEAT round and an CG HEAT round, except for the massive difference in warhead size (2.5 lbs versus 17 lbs).  However a good gunner could ensure a 1st round hit using the .50 spotting rifle at ranges well in excess of the stated "best fighting range" of 500-700 metres (I've scored at 1400 against a stationary head-on and hull down target).  It's important to note that the .50 ST rifle ammo is NOT interchangeable with the .50 BMG ammo.

There's start for you.
 
Iltis and GWagons were never designed to take the M79 mounts... you'd have a hell of a time fitting it to either vehicle.

It would not be good to roof mount onto a RG31 or LAVIII.  While we did have 'em on top of the M113s, the crew was extremely exposed and there wasn't an equivalent to TUA for the 106.  Could it be welded onto the back of a pickup truck - yeah, sure but I am not sure of the benefits to such a move...........
 
As Haggis indicated, you don't really want a HEAT round to break down walls.  The reason HEAT is used against armour is that it creates a very hot environment with a bunch of small metal fragments flying around a very small space that is filled with flammable or fragile parts.  Assuming a good portion of the penetrator gets through and it's still travelling at a good rates of knots, stuff is going to get broken.

What you want for making holes in the wall, and life uncomfortable for people in larger spaces on the other side is HESH (Gunners would probably say 155mm HE fuzed on delay through the roof).  I dont have the figures for the 106 HESH with me, but the 105mm Tank HESH that POF (on the site you referenced) has around 2.2kg.  Depending on the thickness of your wall it would probably blow anything from a hole 3/4 the size of a door, to something that you could post a grenade through or stick your head through.

All that being said, there is some new ammo out for the 106.  According to Janes Bofors has a HEAT round that they claim can penetrate over 700mm of RHA+ERA.  Israel has one that advertises 480mm of penetration.  The US also had a flechette round with 9500 munitions, but only the US used it.  Spain makes a HE Anti-pers with a pre-fragmented payload.  HESH seems to have fallen out of favour, maybe some of those that used can tell us why?

I remember 106mm just coming out of service (as far the ammo world goes) when I joined.  A few years later, early 90s, 93 I think, we were told that it was coming back in a limited role with the Airborne.  The spotting rifle would be ditched and a laser range finder and electronic sight fitted.  Due to unfortunate events, that plan never panned out and we pushed the 106 rounds back to rear of the mag.  It came out again in 95 or 96 when Parks Canada decided to try their hand at AVCON and bought some guns and ammo and we stored the ammo for them.  This didn't work out and they went back to using 105mm with military crews.
 
Fair enough. I will dump the idea and continue with a more sane thought like a full sweep with the whole army from north to south afghanistan (just kidding for those who may have taken it seriously). Thanks for the opinion again.
 
I wouldn't say dump it.

105 type HESH is a good tool, if we didn't have Leopards over there I would say 106 might be a decent alternative.  You cant really get the range AND performance with a shoulder fired weapon.  One or the other, but not really both unless you start looking at novel explosives (thermobaric, etc) which is a big project.
Getting a good protective and stable mount for the 106 is mainly a technical hurdle to overcome.  The main problem is the back-blast area, no real way of reducing that with a major re-engineering of the whole system.  Signature similiar to Leopard firing but a lot more dangerous to those around you.

D
 
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