‘White nationalism’ a threat the Canadian Armed Forces aren’t equipped for: watchdog

[daftandbarmy]

Coming soon to a DLN near you; 'Don't be a literal Nazi', a self directed learning module.

Luckily, there's a CAO about all that resulting from earlier inquiries into 'hateful conduct'. I think this is really good policy, not that I'm a policy expert or anything, and whoever wrote it did a great job!

Canadian Army Order 11-82 Hateful Conduct - Canada.ca

This Canadian Army Order (CAO) applies to all Canadian Army (CA) personnel of the Regular Force at all times, the Reserve force and the Canadian Rangers when subject to the Code of Service Discipline as per Section 60 of the National Defence Act.

www.canada.ca

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/canadian-military-tool-identifies-hateful-conduct-1.5652276

And some more stuff on the subject from earlier this year. Auditors tend to circle like sharks when their recommendations, from earlier reports, aren't apparently being implemented:

The issue of right-wing extremism in the Canadian military first burst into the public domain in 2017 following an incident in Halifax in which a group of sailors associated with the Proud Boys disrupted an Indigenous ceremony. A military intelligence report later linked dozens of Armed Forces members to extremist groups, and warned that such organizations were actively recruiting or otherwise trying to infiltrate the military to gain training, experience and equipment. In one high-profile case, a former reservist from Manitoba who was a member of a neo-Nazi group was sentenced in the United States to nine years in prison for what investigators called a violent plot to trigger a "race war."

The panel was critical of what they saw as the Armed Forces' failure to act on hundreds of previous recommendations and reports designed to address some of these issues. "Over the past 20 years, reports from 41 inquiries, panels, boards, climate surveys and reviews have generated 258 recommendations to address diversity, inclusion, respect and professional conduct," retired major Sandra Perron said during the news conference.

"When this advisory panel tried to identify the progress on these recommendations, it became immediately clear that many of them were poorly implemented, shelved or even discarded." Anand acknowledged those failures, and suggested the time for action has finally come, noting the establishment of several working groups and other bodies as well as new monitoring and reporting mechanisms to make things happen.

Canadian military not doing enough to detect, prevent extremism in the ranks: report

 

[blacktriangle]

Early on in my career, I definitely remember derogatory comments being made about certain identifiable groups by instructors/supervisors. I also remember rants about women by those that had experienced messy divorces etc, and just a general lack of respect for women (even other serving members)

Being bombarded by that kind of crap at 17-18, by people in positions of authority, doesn't help a new recruit become a more well-adjusted member of the military/society.

Looking back, some of these folks were probably dealing with their own mental baggage from operational experiences. Others were probably just racist/misogynist assholes. Either way, they were in need of some serious deprogramming, but were instead tasked with programming the next generation.

So while it's prudent to make sure you aren't bringing in external hire extremists, it probably doesn't hurt to make sure you aren't breeding them internally.

 

[Brad Sallows]

That's just not accurate.

The FLQ was, if anything, the stark opposite. They were left-leaning, many were communists and there was even a connection with the KGB. Not unlike their counterparts in Europe, then, such as the Baader-Meinhof group.

If you think European (Russian-backed) communists were not under the thumb of people at the top who believed in their own cultural supremacy, you misunderstand history. "Communism" is a political description, not a guarantor of ethnic/culture/race equity. People in the Russian sphere of influence were never really equal to ethnic Russians.

 

[TacticalTea]

If you think European (Russian-backed) communists were not under the thumb of people at the top who believed in their own cultural supremacy, you misunderstand history. "Communism" is a political description, not a guarantor of ethnic/culture/race equity. People in the Russian sphere of influence were never really equal to ethnic Russians.

Two fallacies in one, I tip my hat.

It's a strawman to say I ever denied that. I am acutely aware of, especially, racism in the higher spheres of Russian communism.

But you're moving the goalpost here. We are not talking about elites. The topic at hand was lowly armed insurrectionists.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I just don't understand what you're getting at with the phrase ''cultural supremacy'' but that's something you'll have to define and explain how it relates in any way to White Supremacy, because I don't see it.

 

[Quirky]

And I am glad I retired.

There are worse things you can do for a paycheque every two weeks.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I didn't write that you denied racism. But you did try to draw a connection from "left-leading" to "not supremacist" based on mere definitions rather than actual human behaviour, and dragged in the Russian KGB to verify their communist connection.

I didn't move a goalpost. I was illustrating the point that political definitions don't prevent ethno-chauvinism.

[On cultural supremacy: when people say "race", they mean at minimum ethnicity (sometimes very narrowly a genetically defined ethnicity) and usually a particular mix of ethnicity and culture. All of humanity should be one race. (Yes, I'm familiar with the long-standing compartmentalization into 4 - sometimes 5 - races.) When people say "white supremacy", they mean a particular kind of culture. The FLQ was fighting for a particular cultural supremacy. Based on the way QC sometimes expresses itself politically, I'm not convinced there is an absence of cultural chauvinism along fairly narrow lines.]

 

[TacticalTea]

I didn't write that you denied racism. But you did try to draw a connection from "left-leading" to "not supremacist" based on mere definitions rather than actual human behaviour, and dragged in the Russian KGB to verify their communist connection.

I understand the point you're making. I'm not merely applying "definitions" however. I'm describing my lived experience as a Quebeccer.

I didn't move a goalpost. I was illustrating the point that political definitions don't prevent ethno-chauvinism.

[On cultural supremacy: when people say "race", they mean at minimum ethnicity (sometimes very narrowly a genetically defined ethnicity) and usually a particular mix of ethnicity and culture. All of humanity should be one race. (Yes, I'm familiar with the long-standing compartmentalization into 4 - sometimes 5 - races.) When people say "white supremacy", they mean a particular kind of culture.

The FLQ was fighting for a particular cultural supremacy.

Incorrect.

Based on the way QC sometimes expresses itself politically, I'm not convinced there is an absence of cultural chauvinism along fairly narrow lines.]

Characteristic misunderstanding of Quebec.

I don't know why you're hanging on to this for dear life. There wasn't a shred of supremacism in the FLQ's ideology. No one goes around saying "Quebec uber alles" or variations thereof.

I understand how you may have been the target of propaganda efforts (if you were alive at the time) that made such claims, but this idea is not rooted in reality.

To be clear: there is no correlation, at all, between the historical facts and what you are suggesting right now.

You're making an outlandish claim, it's long past time that you provide evidence for it or start keeping that idea to yourself.

 

[ArmyRick]

On White Supremacy/Nationalism/Racism/Bad people of European Descent. Jim Brought up good points. I am biased and listen carefully to Jim S because he was one of my early mentors and I hold huge respect for him.

My military brothers, its like forest fires/wild fires. Sometimes its little burning areas that take minimal effort to snuff out. Other times, Its starts small and builds momentum quickly, next thing you know, its BC Summer 2021, wild and out of control.

Lets treat this BS racist conduct like it is. If you see small grumblings or suggestions ("Damn immigrants...", "Those f-ing Insert racist term here", "Hey those XXX should leave their Beliefs/religion/etc behind") Snuff it out HARD. Its a bottom up effort. Take away its "fuel Load" quickly and knock its growth off immediately.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... My military brothers, its like forest fires/wild fires. Sometimes its little burning areas that take minimal effort to snuff out. Other times, Its starts small and builds momentum quickly, next thing you know, its BC Summer 2021, wild and out of control ...

Great analogy - it's only a smouldering cigarette butt, unless it leads to more.

 

[OldSolduer]

On White Supremacy/Nationalism/Racism/Bad people of European Descent.

I was listening to a podcast - actually a few - and it seems the Spanish and Portugese don't have clean hands either. Nor do the Dutch, the French etc etc

 

[FSTO]

Not to be cliche, but I'm going to go ahead and push back on the idea that the FLQ had anything to do with white supremacy. To suggest so is just more perplexing than anything. Betrays a certain ignorance, certainly. But, by all means, if you've got any evidence to support that notion, put it forth.

It also wasn't a ''very small'' group, it was actually surprisingly large.

@Kirkhill what's your point about Pierre Vallières?

So this is directed at me.
I was 9 years old when this was going on. I remember the “go ahead and bleed” statement from the PM

To me the FLQ was a group dedicated to the independence of Quebec and indirectly keeping it “pure lain” (pardon my piss poor French) and therefore is another version of white supremacy.

Yes they had broad support initially, but how many more people were willing to take up arms against the federal government? Not enough to cause a revolution on the scale we’ve seen in other countries (Vietnam, Algeria, Ireland)

 

[TacticalTea]

So this is directed at me.
I was 9 years old when this was going on. I remember the “go ahead and bleed” statement from the PM

Much like Junior had to employ propaganda to convince Canadians of the necessity of invoking the EA, Senior did the same for its contemporary equivalent.

To me the FLQ was a group dedicated to the independence of Quebec and indirectly keeping it “pure lain” (pardon my piss poor French) and therefore is another version of white supremacy.

I understand where you're coming from, as there is a notion of ''pure laine'' in Quebec - albeit it is used much more often to comedically denigrate nationalism than to actually exclude others. Sure, you'll find the occasional racist, just like everywhere.

But in essence, that is a misunderstanding of what Quebec nationalism consists of. It is not a nationalism that says ''we are better than others'' but rather, one that says we are different, have different priorities and values than the rest of the country and continent, and need to empower ourselves to protect that way of life. It is in no small part a reaction to the domination of the anglosphere in Quebec's corporate and political sectors.

Again, it has nothing to do with white supremacy. That is fantasy. It originated in cosmopolitan Montreal and remains internationalist to this day. All parties advocating for it can be described as social-democrats.

Yes they had broad support initially, but how many more people were willing to take up arms against the federal government? Not enough to cause a revolution on the scale we’ve seen in other countries (Vietnam, Algeria, Ireland)

More a consequence of culture than numbers.

 

[FSTO]

I agrée with pretty much all of your points. I think a few Quebec Black Activist would have an issue with no white supremacy in Quebec.

 

[Furniture]

I'm curious to see how the CAF plans to spend more time spying on members, while also dealing with a retention crisis.

I keep my personal stuff off CAF systems because I like to keep my life separate from my job. I'm not thrilled by the idea of a white nationalism commisar spying on my personal life on the off chance I've somehow become radicalized.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm curious to see how the CAF plans to spend more time spying on members, while also dealing with a retention crisis.

I keep my personal stuff off CAF systems because I like to keep my life separate from my job. I'm not thrilled by the idea of a white nationalism commisar spying on my personal life on the off chance I've somehow become radicalized.

Ahh, that's the ticket. Political Officers in every platoon.

 

[Kirkhill]

So this is directed at me.
I was 9 years old when this was going on. I remember the “go ahead and bleed” statement from the PM

To me the FLQ was a group dedicated to the independence of Quebec and indirectly keeping it “pure lain” (pardon my piss poor French) and therefore is another version of white supremacy.

Yes they had broad support initially, but how many more people were willing to take up arms against the federal government? Not enough to cause a revolution on the scale we’ve seen in other countries (Vietnam, Algeria, Ireland)

FSTO

It honestly wasn't directed at anyone. I was referencing how vocabulary morphs and changes. In the 70s the FLQ wanted to play up victimhood so they aligned themselves with the US Black Rights Matters of the day - the Black Panthers and the Weathermen etc. They consciously called themselves White Niggers. They were White. They co-opted Black victimology to demonstrate that they were as much Victims of White Anglo Saxon Protestant culture as the Blacks. Bit of a turnabout from local attitudes in the 1930s. And again from current attitudes.

Just like Gay and Feminist. Judgemental and Discriminating. Vocabulary.

 

[Brad Sallows]

So what was the FLQ fighting for, if not a particular culture?

I have lived experience as a white man, but that doesn't mean I understand the malcontents on the fringes of society today, let alone those who were adults 50-odd years ago.

 

[Brad Sallows]

But in essence, that is a misunderstanding of what Quebec nationalism consists of. It is not a nationalism that says ''we are better than others'' but rather, one that says we are different, have different priorities and values than the rest of the country and continent, and need to empower ourselves to protect that way of life. It is in no small part a reaction to the domination of the anglosphere in Quebec's corporate and political sectors.

In other words, supremacy of the priorities, the values, the way of life - the culture. They were planning to set up their socialist Francophone state and not place their language and culture above those of the all the non-Francophones?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Characteristic misunderstanding of Quebec.

I'm going by what they legislate.

 

[Kirkhill]

I think that every culture wants to dominate its own kitchen table. Beyond that it wants to feel comfortable as it goes through its daily life. That means keeping the number of surprises, pleasant or unpleasant, to a minimum. Preferably to be encountered at manageable rate.

I'm old fashioned enough to believe in Property. The table is my table. My table, my rules. No surprises.
I am happy enough to invite new people to my table on my timeline. I can accommodate the occasional transgression from the well meaning. I can't tolerate being told how to live at my own table. Especially by people I invited to my table.

Away from my table, outside of my house, my toleration increases. But after 50 years of abrasion - even the most thick skin can be thinned.

I understand why the various native cultures don't want to be homogenized and want to retain their identities. I understand the same wish amongst Blacks, French, Spaniards, Catalans, Basque, Bavarians, Scots, Irish, Hutu and Tutsi - even Han. And Quebecers.

Best advice I was ever given was given before I went to school. Never mock somebody for their beliefs. Especially their religion.