Our North - SSE Policy Update Megathread

[Blackadder1916]

PS - UxVs

How about UxPs? Uncrewed Plants?

If we expect cars, planes and ships to operate autonomously, or under remote supervision, why don't we expect the same from all of our distributed infrastructure? Pipelines and pumping stations commonly operate uncrewed. Supervision is remote. Maintenance is dispatched.

SCADA - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Are you suggesting this as a solution to infrastructure deficiencies in Northern communities (particularly First Nations)?

Is the problem that there are no competent operators/maintainers* to manage the systems, or that there is no "system" as we in the south would recognize? If I want to put the kettle on for a cuppa or to take a shower or shave, all I have to do is turn a tap. If after that cuppa I have to take a leak or before the shower and shave I have need of the other "s" all I have to do is figuratively "pull the chain". While we may not have any personal connection to those who deliver our water or collect our excreta, the majority of Northerners in small communities still rely on a (hopefully more sophisticated) "honey wagon" to collect their piss and poo. How do you "uncrew" that?


* Or maybe they are scarce

https://www.gov.nu.ca/en/waterwastewater-systems-manager-re-advertised/14-508253

https://www.gov.nu.ca/en/wastewater-systems-operator-re-advertised/14-508106

 

[Kirkhill]

Are you suggesting this as a solution to infrastructure deficiencies in Northern communities (particularly First Nations)?

Is the problem that there are no competent operators/maintainers* to manage the systems, or that there is no "system" as we in the south would recognize? If I want to put the kettle on for a cuppa or to take a shower or shave, all I have to do is turn a tap. If after that cuppa I have to take a leak or before the shower and shave I have need of the other "s" all I have to do is figuratively "pull the chain". While we may not have any personal connection to those who deliver our water or collect our excreta, the majority of Northerners in small communities still rely on a (hopefully more sophisticated) "honey wagon" to collect their piss and poo. How do you "uncrew" that?


* Or maybe they are scarce

https://www.gov.nu.ca/en/waterwastewater-systems-manager-re-advertised/14-508253

https://www.gov.nu.ca/en/wastewater-systems-operator-re-advertised/14-508106

I'm suggesting that I installed complex systems in Alaska that were locally controlled by transient foreign labour. When problems arose remote supervision and troubleshooting were provided from Denmark.

No production time lost.

 

[YZT580]

I'm suggesting that I installed complex systems in Alaska that were locally controlled by transient foreign labour. When problems arose remote supervision and troubleshooting were provided from Denmark.

No production time lost.

I just did a quick google search of Nunavut. IMHO here is the problem in a nutshell. The Feds have invested almost 4 million dollars in studies of 6 communities in Nunavut. This was in 2024. I would be willing to bet that there are several previously commissioned reports and studies in a cabinet somewhere in OW. What this country desperately needs is someone to actually do something.

When the old hospital in Oakville built a new emergency services wing, one of the office managers called in maintenance about a paint job. The closet in the office hadn't been painted. the plant manager arrived with a painter to discuss the issue with the executive who had complained and pointed out to him that it wasn't part of the contract. They spent the next 15 or 20 minutes in discussion regarding whose budget would cover the costs only to be interrupted by the painter asking what was next as he had finished painting the closet.

Almost every problem brought up on this site could be solved if someone, who has the authority, would just get on with doing the job. Simplistic maybe but we would save a lot of money and aggravation in the long run

 

[quadrapiper]

Thoughts on a Canadian iteration of the USACE, with their first tasking being to the north?

 

[Kirkhill]

Thomas P. Barnett on Trump's new Monroe Doctrine

It is a long read. And worth it. Very much to the point re the Arctic, Alberta, Tariffs, the EU and Latin America.

An Expert in Grand Strategy Thinks Trump Is on to Something​

Do you want a future in which Canada defects to the EU, Russia rules the Arctic and China runs Latin America? That’s the default outcome of non-action.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/01/16/logic-trump-global-ambitions-canada-europe-greenland-00198656

 

[Kirkhill]

And just in case you missed the EU offer....

2 January 2025.

Why Canada should join the EU

Europe needs space and resources, Canada needs people. Let’s deal

www.economist.com

By the way. I distinguish between the JEF EU and the Brussels EU. Italy currently bends towards the JEF EU.

 

[Kirkhill]

If Barnett is right and both Trump and the EU want us then that is no bad thing.

I think I could make a business case for East West trade links if North South trade becomes too expensive.

How fast can we get a floating LNG terminal into Hudson's Bay?

How quickly can we get some nuclear reactors into the Uranium fields of Northern Saskatchewan to power data centers locally?

 

[CountDC]

with our government? 20 plus years to study and another 20 to start action. 100 years we can have it completed.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

with our government? 20 plus years to study and another 20 to start action. 100 years we can have it completed.

2012 from proposal submission to 2015 EA approval. FID 2018 and 2025 startup of the terminal. That's to build the terminal, LNG trains and pipeline LNG Canada - Wikipedia

 

[Kirkhill]

2012 from proposal submission to 2015 EA approval. FID 2018 and 2025 startup of the terminal. That's to build the terminal, LNG trains and pipeline LNG Canada - Wikipedia

I give you Moosonee as a starting point for an LNG terminal

Moosonee (/ˌmuːsəˈniː/) is a town in northern Ontario, Canada, on the Moose River approximately 19 km (12 mi) south of James Bay. It is considered to be "the Gateway to the Arctic" and has Ontario's only saltwater port.Nearby on Moose Factory Island is the community of Moose Factory to which it is connected by water taxi in the summer and ice road in the winter.

There is no road connection to the community but flights are provided by Air Creebec and by Thunder Airlines, via Moosonee Airport. Moosonee is also the railhead of the Ontario Northland Railway where goods are transferred to barges and aircraft for transport to more northerly communities. Moosonee is not particularly far north, being located at 51°N—which is roughly the same latitude as Saskatoon and Calgary —but is colder due to its proximity to Hudson Bay, and isolated due to its lack of road access to the rest of Ontario.

Moosonee formerly held the status of a development area, the only community in the province with that designation; it was governed by a locally elected board subject to formal appointment by the Ontario provincial government. It became incorporated as a town effective January 1, 2001, with an elected mayor and four-person council.

Natural Gas from the existing Trans Canada Pipeline at Cochrane, by existing rail from Cochrane to Moosonee and by barge from Moosonee to a floating LNG terminal then by tanker to Europe.

The barges would have to be built. The terminal would have to be bought or built. The tankers exist.

And Ontario gets a chunk of the Fossil Fuel Export dollars.

Now. How fast can you get those approvals in place?

Follow up with 2-300 km of pipeline along the rail and barge route to the terminal and also with a pipeline to Churchill or Port Nelson.

 

[Kirkhill]

This image was brought to my attention. The logic looks right. Ottawa is apparently 7000 km from Moscow. That would seem to justify our anemic defence spending.

On the other hand:



These two bases, Nagurskoye on Russia's Alexandraland and CFS Alert on Canada's Ellesmere Island are 1500 km apart, or somewhere around the Prague/Berlin - Moscow separation.

THE ICE CURTAIN: RUSSIA’S ARCTIC MILITARY PRESENCE

In 2007 Russia re-prioritized the Arctic in keeping with Vladimir Putin's vision of restoring Russia's status as a great power. Now more than a decade later, Russia's military returns to the Arctic with strategic implications for the United States.

www.csis.org

....

11 months ago Vanguard published this article.

The Last Word – Shouldn’t the Army be Able to Defend Canada’s North?​

The Last Word – Shouldn’t the Army be Able to Defend Canada’s North? – Vanguard

with this observation

the newly constructed Russian air force base at Nagurskoye is 500 kilometers closer to CFS Alert than our less-capable Air Force Forward Operating Location at Iqaluit

...

And there is this corroborating article

https://arcticsecurity.ca/pdfs/Vanguard%20AprMay%20_p15.pdf

Canada needs to increase its strategic infrastructure in the Arctic.

One of those investments should be the development of a more northern forward operation location (FOL) in the High Arctic. There is a gap of 3,000 kilometers between the FOL in Inuvik and the one in Iqaluit. Those FOLs are over 2,000 km from our station in Alert. Russia has the Nagurskoye airbase on Alexandra Land in Arkhangelsk Oblast, which is only 1,527 km away. Resolute Bay, Nunavut, should be developed as a security hub including an FOL, an air defence long range radar, sub-surface monitoring sensors and a deep-sea port. Resolute Bay could support fighter operations of the Canadian Forces, drone surveillance and the long-range maritime patrol of the CP-140 Arcturus and their new suite of sensors. The Canadian Coast Guard as well as all the federal departments with functions in the Arctic such as the Canadian Border Security Agency could be supported there on a seasonal basis. Such dual-use facilities would also generate commercial opportunities.

....

America wants that ground covered. Either we accept the cost of covering that approach to their satisfaction or they will cover the approach and send us the bill.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I give you Moosonee as a starting point for an LNG terminal



View attachment 90584 View attachment 90587View attachment 90588

Natural Gas from the existing Trans Canada Pipeline at Cochrane, by existing rail from Cochrane to Moosonee and by barge from Moosonee to a floating LNG terminal then by tanker to Europe.

The barges would have to be built. The terminal would have to be bought or built. The tankers exist.

And Ontario gets a chunk of the Fossil Fuel Export dollars.

Now. How fast can you get those approvals in place?

Follow up with 2-300 km of pipeline along the rail and barge route to the terminal and also with a pipeline to Churchill or Port Nelson.

You will need minimum of 12m for depth alongside the berth, and deeper in turning basins and channel to prevent squat.

 

[Kirkhill]

You will need minimum of 12m for depth alongside the berth, and deeper in turning basins and channel to prevent squat.

How about barging from the Railhead to the Transport vessel?

And how about CNG vs LNG to get started with?

https://www.gasvessel.eu/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Gasvessel-WP7-D7.2-Comparative-Analysis_v2.0.pdf

 

[Kirkhill]

@Colin Parkinson

The 12 m line appears to be about 25 km offshore, or 44 km from the Moosonee Wharf.

Tidal flats, "Ship Sands" and bars seem to cover about 2/3 of the offshore distance of travel.

 

[YZT580]

@Colin Parkinson

The 12 m line appears to be about 25 km offshore, or 44 km from the Moosonee Wharf.

Tidal flats, "Ship Sands" and bars seem to cover about 2/3 of the offshore distance of travel.

Better to develop around Fort Nelson. Build a rail link to Thompson and a gas pipeline. It is closer to deep water and wouldn't need the constant dredging. I would suggest Churchill but there is a lot of very soft land to complicate construction

 

[Kirkhill]

Better to develop around Fort Nelson. Build a rail link to Thompson and a gas pipeline. It is closer to deep water and wouldn't need the constant dredging. I would suggest Churchill but there is a lot of very soft land to complicate construction

But which can start exporting first? I agree with Port/Fort Nelson as the better long term solution. But how fast can we break our own self-imposed blockade?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

BC has broken that blockade for LNG with one plant in start up, another smaller one in construction and another small one finishing the planning stage. Plus 2 Propane terminals in the last 10 years and one oil terminal.

 

[Kirkhill]

Now if only Alberta could export dilbit.....

or crude ...

or WCS (TM is a start).

 

[lenaitch]

@Colin Parkinson

The 12 m line appears to be about 25 km offshore, or 44 km from the Moosonee Wharf.

Tidal flats, "Ship Sands" and bars seem to cover about 2/3 of the offshore distance of travel.

Is there an example of a floating offshore platform in ice-bound waters of would we pioneer this? Add to the list a permanent dredging ship and crew; some sandbars can change almost daily. Draught clearances would have to take into account tides. Not huge but still an issue in the shallow waters of James Bay.

Better to develop around Fort Nelson. Build a rail link to Thompson and a gas pipeline. It is closer to deep water and wouldn't need the constant dredging. I would suggest Churchill but there is a lot of very soft land to complicate construction

Port Nelson (Fort Nelson is in BC) was the original intended terminus of the Hudson's Bay railway. You can still see the scar on sat images and the even built a bridge to a small offshore island which was to serve as the port but they determined that currents and silting made it impractical and diverted the rail line north to Churchill.

 

[GK .Dundas]

The Manitoba Historical Society did a couple of YouTube videos on Port Nelson. Including a very nice overflight by drone.