Will 2021 see a new pistol buy?

[OceanBonfire]

Final delivery on 6 March. Total of 16,500 C22 pistols for Army, Navy, and Air Force and 3,200 C24 pistols for the MPs.

https://www.facebook.com/CanadianForces/posts/pfbid02aGrD2YuwAQYHZYnmMVRM1CwH3JENgyF854eL1GjBdRJrHi9Rm1STWiFn5wWH5mnFl

 

[CBH99]

The Army spends so little effort on proper, quality pistol training, that this shouldn't be an issue.

In my 11 years in, I actually don't remember doing any pistol training at all minus a few rounds downrange early on in my career. (2 mags worth I think)

Final delivery on 6 March. Total of 16,500 C22 pistols for Army, Navy, and Air Force and 3,200 C24 pistols for the MPs.

https://www.facebook.com/CanadianForces/posts/pfbid02aGrD2YuwAQYHZYnmMVRM1CwH3JENgyF854eL1GjBdRJrHi9Rm1STWiFn5wWH5mnFl

Is that 16,500 for general issue + 3500 for MP use? Or 16,500 total? (With 3500 of that 16,500 meant for MP use?)

 

[OldSolduer]

In my 11 years in, I actually don't remember doing any pistol training at all minus a few rounds downrange early on in my career. (2 mags worth I think)

Pistol training is a huge afterthought. Or at least it was. It may have changed.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Pistol training is a huge afterthought. Or at least it was. It may have changed.

I tell people that I can shot pistol despite my army training.....

 

[brihard]

I got to shoot it a bit on workup for tour. Otherwise the only time I got decent pistol training was on my UOI course. I’ve been lucky to get quite a bit more training since, and it really just hammered home how little the army did.

 

[FJAG]

Pistol training is a huge afterthought. Or at least it was. It may have changed.

I guess it was different in my day as an officer as it was taught on our basic arty officers course as our primary weapon and I ended up having to qualify on it frequently including later after I transferred to JAG.

During the 1976 Olympic games 2 RCHA's role included security in hotels for VIPs which ended up us issuing Brownings to most of the troops and instituting an extensive training regime including patrolling and shooting on ranges which simulated hotel corridors with pop-out targets. I think that beyond that I rarely saw a pistol issued to an OR (excluding MPs) until Afghanistan.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It won't change. Not enough ammo. Not enough time. The only saving grace is that most people carrying it, will never have to pull it for real.

No, these will be screwed up, just like the BHP. Fifteen or so years of strip and assemble, IAs and Stoppages, banging against rocks when you throw your gear down and they'll be junk. Prematurely worn out with only a couple of thousand rounds run through it.. Just like lots of our other weapons. A smart TQ would get a number of extras designated for training and leave the rest alone and unissued.

 

[QV]

That barrel crown better be polished bright chrome.

 

[Haggis]

I got to shoot it a bit on workup for tour. Otherwise the only time I got decent pistol training was on my UOI course. I’ve been lucky to get quite a bit more training since, and it really just hammered home how little the army did.

Same here. I was always relatively proficient with the BHP, even competing for a few years. I was lucky enough about 15 years ago to get some great pistol training from some CANSOF instructors. But when I switched over to the LE world (now a firearms instructor) and then into IPSC, I realized just how poorly the mainstream CAF was at teaching pistol. I desperatrly hope this has improved with the C22/C24 entering service.

 

[PuckChaser]

The difference is round count. Nobody will be proficient and competent with a pistol firing 75 rounds a year with 50 of those being the qualification test. You need a thousand rounds or more per person with a good instructor to student ratio to build confidence, competency and muscle memory. Once that's there you can drop the annual round count down but the initial training bill is something the CAF doesn't want to pay.

 

[KevinB]

Go to MidSouth for a month and shoot 10-20k rounds with a solid instructor like what the Hill used to do.

Pistol shooting is a very perishable skill. 1k rounds a month is a minimal maintenance level for high level shooting.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The difference is round count. Nobody will be proficient and competent with a pistol firing 75 rounds a year with 50 of those being the qualification test. You need a thousand rounds or more per person with a good instructor to student ratio to build confidence, competency and muscle memory. Once that's there you can drop the annual round count down but the initial training bill is something the CAF doesn't want to pay.

The more we keep pistols away from those who don't use them as their primary weapon & train continuously to use them safely and effectively, the fewer NDs and other self-inflicted wounds we'll probably have

 

[Ostrozac]

The more we keep pistols away from those who don't use them as their primary weapon & train continuously to use them safely and effectively, the fewer NDs and other self-inflicted wounds we'll probably have

I’m fine with that, adopt the C8 as the PDW for those who need something smaller than a rifle (or whatever replaces the C8, is SARP II still an ongoing project?)

What I’m not fine with is delivering no real pistol training, but giving pistols to people when they arrive in theatre — that’s the real unsafe practice.

 

[dapaterson]

Canadian Army Modular Rifle is the project intended to replace the C7 / C8.

 

[Haggis]

The difference is round count. Nobody will be proficient and competent with a pistol firing 75 rounds a year with 50 of those being the qualification test. You need a thousand rounds or more per person with a good instructor to student ratio to build confidence, competency and muscle memory. Once that's there you can drop the annual round count down but the initial training bill is something the CAF doesn't want to pay.

This and

Pistol shooting is a very perishable skill. 1k rounds a month is a minimal maintenance level for high level shooting.

this are very true. Very true.

I teach firearms for a living and volunteer extensively at my local gun club as an instructor and RSO. The CAF pays little attention to dry firing and I doubt that a lot of use is made of the SATS suites out there. On the civvy side, good shooters with limited access to live ammo (which they must purchase or reload) and suitable ranges will dry fire 3 times as much as live, then confirm with live rounds. There is really no substitute for live trigger time, but without building a good foundation you`re just making noise and empty casings. Many CAF members hated the pistol because they were never properly trained using modern, best practices.

Both simulators and dry firing are obviously much cheaper than live fire, but take time away from all of the command and policy driven briefings, circle talks and any of the other mind numbing PowerPoints CAF members are required to survive annually.

 

[Aper]

What I’m not fine with is delivering no real pistol training, but giving pistols to people when they arrive in theatre — that’s the real unsafe practice.

Back in A-Stan, our Squadron Sergent Major did a misfire incident when unloading before entering the FOB. He never got charged for that incident and your post is 100% accurate.

I also don't understand why we weren't issued C8s and pistols as armoured crewman (drivers) but rather full lenght C7A2s. Might may say because of the rank; I call bullshit as you need to proper tools for the job you're doing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Both simulators and dry firing are obviously much cheaper than live fire, but take time away from all of the command and policy driven briefings, circle talks and any of the other mind numbing PowerPoints CAF members are required to survive annually.

This is all part of the marksmanship psychological preparation plan to make people mad enough to kill people

 

[Haggis]

This is all part of the marksmanship psychological preparation plan to make people mad enough to kill people

You can`t kill what you can`t hit.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I’m fine with that, adopt the C8 as the PDW for those who need something smaller than a rifle (or whatever replaces the C8, is SARP II still an ongoing project?)

What I’m not fine with is delivering no real pistol training, but giving pistols to people when they arrive in theatre — that’s the real unsafe practice.

Bring back the M1 Carbine ?

#makewoodandironcoolagain

 

[daftandbarmy]

Bring back the M1 Carbine ?

#makewoodandironcoolagain

For everyone

UK ARMED FORCES UNINTENTIONAL FIREARM INJURIES

https://web.archive.org/web/20120713042239id_/http://www.ramcjournal.com/2009/mar09/stansfield.pdf