Why have CANEX? (Split fm "Up to 1500 military housing units ...")

[Strike]

As for white goods: Are there no stores in the local area that provide them?  Why is there a military requirement for the CAF to support a store for you to shop for Maytag / Kenmore / Frigidaire / LG?

None that offer 0% interest rate.  Most stores will offer 18% at a minimum but they are usually 22-26%.

 

[dapaterson]

None that offer 0% interest rate.  Most stores will offer 18% at a minimum but they are usually 22-26%.

Again, what do $0 down, 0% interest dry goods have to do with excellence in military operations?

 

[blacktriangle]

The real question is why do soldiers have to buy appliances for their own rental units? And then drag said appliances from posting to posting? Not only does it negatively impact the member (a whack of upfront costs for a sub-standard rental) I'm sure it costs the taxpayer enough to move a members appliances from PMQ A to PMQ B.

Outfit the PMQs properly, and I think we can justify scaling back the CANEX considerably. Want a TV? Go buy one at the store like everyone else.

 

[George Wallace]

The real question is why do soldiers have to buy appliances for their own rental units? And then drag said appliances from posting to posting? Not only does it negatively impact the member (a whack of upfront costs for a sub-standard rental) I'm sure it costs the taxpayer enough to move a members appliances from PMQ A to PMQ B.

Outfit the PMQs properly, and I think we can justify scaling back the CANEX considerably. Want a TV? Go buy one at the store like everyone else.

A question would also be, why don't those soldiers SELL their appliances to lighten their load?  Some Service Members may prefer to keep what they buy, and move with all their F&E; while others may be more inclined to sell/auction off their F&E.  Some Service Members prefer to buy quality, top of the line, items over cheap items that would be provided by an "owner".  There are a long list of counter points to your argument.

 

[blacktriangle]

I'd really have to ask someone that prefers "quality, top of the line" ANYTHING what they are doing in a run down PMQ.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . .

First principle of war: Selection and maintenance of the aim.  I do not believe flogging T-shirts, mugs, keychains, chips and TVs is the aim of the CAF.

Second principle of war:  Maintenance of morale.

The following quote (or something similar) will probably be found in any of several pubs that list and discuss the principles of war:

" . . .  Circumstances will dictate the relative importance of each principle.  Often, the commander adheres to one at the expense of another.  To disregard a principle, however, involves risk and the possibility of failure. . . . "

I did not find "cost effective"  or "profit-loss" among the principles, however, I suppose that is covered under "Economy of effort".

Honestly, I do see your point of view and if CANEX had even the slightest iota of effect on my life (it's probably been a dozen or more years since I was in a CANEX outlet), I would probably question its operation.  Not the existence of it (or a similar organization), but the manner in which it is organized and managed.

Like the married quarters (not to bring back into discussion the thread from which this one started), CANEX has evolved from a locally organized and managed entity (under a greater NDHQ umbrella that provided only broad policy and general direction) which was responsive to the needs of the local community (and commanders who had a vested interest) into a centrally organized and managed entity that brings with it the bureaucracy of a large retail chain but none of the benefits.  There is a need for some form of retail outlet(s) to provide morale support at some (maybe all?) CF locations, but whether CANEX can be made into the perfect vehicle for that is unlikely.

 

[Strike]

Again, what do $0 down, 0% interest dry goods have to do with excellence in military operations?

Nothing.  And that's not the question that you originally asked in this thread.  Stop moving the goal posts to support your argument.

 

[Steve_D]

Again, what do $0 down, 0% interest dry goods have to do with excellence in military operations?

Successful military operations need to rely heavily on good morale. A young, new soldier/sailor/airman who is struggling financially (and NO, not due to improper budgeting, so don't go there) who is struggling to make payments on an 18% credit loan simply to put appliances in their dwelling will always have a hard time focusing on the job at hand when they know that their family has almost no money left over to pay for basic groceries.

Offering the CANEX plan greatly assists in preventing this.

This is not the CAF of 40 years ago where if the military wanted you to have a family, they would have issued you one.  Support of our troops includes support of their families as well. Money is not everything. Good morale is critical and proper support from a happy (read not stressed) family is a huge factor in that.

Hating on CANEX the way that this thread has gone, you probably despise Walmart too. Not everyone is able to just walk into another store and purchase large ticket items which are a necessity the same way that others can for any number of reasons and they should not be judged for it. Have you had to put out the money for a child's braces lately? That will have a big impact on your monthly budget, especially if you are not making the "big bucks".

Support of our troops and their families comes in different forms and the CANEX is one of them. If you remove the support mechanisms, then you can expect a mass Exodus.

 

[Steve_D]

I'd really have to ask someone that prefers "quality, top of the line" ANYTHING what they are doing in a run down PMQ.

That is a big assumption that people are looking for "quality, top of the line" stuff.  Even lower end appliances can add up when you NEED to purchase them. You don't really need a TV to live, but a fridge, stove, washer and dryer are very essential. Try purchasing those 4 appliances, even at a cheaper cost and you will quickly find that the total adds up.  The argument can be made to buy used, but still not something the average Private can purchase for cash outright while supporting a family.

 

[blacktriangle]

That is a big assumption that people are looking for "quality, top of the line" stuff.  Even lower end appliances can add up when you NEED to purchase them. You don't really need a TV to live, but a fridge, stove, washer and dryer are very essential. Try purchasing those 4 appliances, even at a cheaper cost and you will quickly find that the total adds up.  The argument can be made to buy used, but still not something the average Private can purchase for cash outright while supporting a family.

Yes but that was the argument George Wallace brought up. I suggested that PMQs come equipped with appliances/proper facilities (like almost all modern rentals I have ever seen) and he countered that items provided by CFHA may not be up to the high standards of our apparently cash strapped, destitute Jr NCMs.

Appliances ARE expensive, I am not arguing this. So why are we forcing such a burden on our brand new soldiers making less than 40k a year? The shacks have washers/dryers, and so should the Q's.

 

[runormal]

CANEX does cost public money.  The infrastructure and PILT and other costs are borne by the public - CANEX contributes not one thin dime.

Do you have a dollar figure? Or even a ball park figure? Your biggest gripe seems to be that it:
A) Costs money
B) Takes time from leadership.

Whereas countless members are saying it is beneficial whether this is 0% interest, good produce, very useful, close to PMQ's etc.

Looking at the report and financial statements it says:

One of the strengths that set our services apart from others is the caring, cooperative framework upon which NPP is founded. The proceeds that military members, veterans and their families invest in NPP programs go back into local community services. For instance, by buying new furniture at CANEX or signing up for life insurance with SISIP Financial, military members maybe helping send a child to summer camp, or investing in their Base/Wing’s Family Day. In FY 2014-2015, $4.09M was reinvested in the delivery of local morale and welfare services. [1]

Looking at the Financial statements we see.

CANEX

Contribution to CFCF and Royalties
3,754,000 FY 14/15
3,782,000 FY 13/14 (Even though CANEX had a net of loss $231,000)

SISIP
Contribution to CFCF
3,150,000 FY 14/15
3,150,000 FY 13/14
[1]

I'm assuming that SISIP paid for 3.15M and CANEX paid 0.94M and that the remaining 2.81M was paid to base Royalities. (Not 100% sure on the allocation, if a SME with more experience in this area can correct me that'd be great)

So we have a Service that members seem to enjoy and various members have posted stories where it is a neccesity (Such as Petawawa (and other postings), New Pte's with little money, dependants without transportation) and for the past two years has paid on average $3.768M To services that directly support the CF member and their family members. How much does it really cost to operate 33 retail stores (Some of which are express marts)[2]? Likewise if we shut it down who pays the 3.75M that CANEX currently provides?

Edit:
Wait a minute,

''CANEX Concessions
CANEX in our effort to provide the highest level of available products or services will lease excess NPF space on CF Bases/Wings to local businesses through Concession Agreements.

CANEX concessions include Subway and Tim Hortons, as well as several other convenience operations including:

​Financial Services
Barber Shops
    Florist
    Optometrists
    Pharmacies
    Beauty Salons
    ​Medical/Dental Offices
    Service Stations
    Travel Services
    Tailors/Seamstresses
    Banks/Credit Unions

[3]

Does NPF then actually pay for the CANEX space in the first place? If that is the case what is the issue?

Refs:

[1] https://www.cfmws.com/en/AboutUs/Library/PublicationsandPresentations/AnnualReport/AnnualReport2014-15/Documents/2014-15%20NPP%20Annual%20Report%20May15.pdf
[2] http://www.canex.ca/ustorelocator/location/map
[3] https://www.cfmws.com/en/AboutUs/CANEX/services_operations_concessions/Pages/default.aspx

 

[jollyjacktar]

Again, what do $0 down, 0% interest dry goods have to do with excellence in military operations?

Everything.  Excellence in military operations comes from looking after the welfare of your troops.  If you're helping Pte/Cpl Bloggins and his/her family feel that they have a reasonable means of getting things they need without being gouged by the high interest that comes of your favorite flagship, whatever you're beating a drum for, then that service person will do better at work. If you cannot see beyond the end of your spite for CANEX to see that it does provide for your fellow service member, then you are missing something in your makeup.

You want to lash out at institutions?  Why not go after the messes?  Why, in today's CAF do we have them?  There must be some who don't use them much or at all.  With that reasoning then, we should ban them.  Tear them down.  Hell, let's go after the Regimental Museums after that.  What good are they, eh?  Doesn't put a Leopard in the field, does it?  Really, where do we stop then?

As I said, you don't like it.  Don't shop there then and leave it to those of us who do.

 

[GRACE OMALLEY]

Again, what do $0 down, 0% interest dry goods have to do with excellence in military operations?

Everything. I have over 20+ years experience running budgets of multiple millions, successfully making pennies stretch to dollars. Two masters degrees. Age and experience. I am understating my responsibilities as they are not the point. The point of Canex is those families and members who are trying to afford the entire month before their money runs out, supporting families. I will fight for Canex and their role and responsibilities despite being in a well paid position myself. Leadership is action, not to serve oneself, but others.  We can play the numbers and reports in circles, pulling graphs to support one position on Canex or another. Simply, it runs a margin that we could argue from a multitude of angles. Our core values in the forces, is the final voice. I will continue to buy Canex items although I can shop anywhere. Our brothers and sisters, with more limited choices, don't need us to sit in judgement of why they support Canex. Instead, they need to know that we respect that military operations don't stop at foreign borders , and we will continue to give them the ability to walk to a Canex, count their change, get those few items they have to have, and damn well respect them while they stretch pennies to dollars. I might get commendations for pulling every cent out of a large operational budget, but when I stand behind that soldier buying diapers at the Canex, let me tell you my respect for his military operational support outshines pride I have in my efforts. A drive to Walmart isn't always possible with an exhausted spouse, kids in need and no money for car insurance. Thank everything holy for the soldiers who still split a package of diapers with their buddy until pay gets deposited. You think we don't notice, but we do, and we respect you. Well done Canex, and well done you. I am not sorry for this rant. I am sorry, though, for anyone who forgets that Canex is a contributor to operations.

 

[LCIS227]

Again, why do we need Canex to deliver that effect?  Canex has the geographical challenges of any Canadian retailer, without the economies of scale.  Would we not be better served by leveraging expertise in the private sector in those places where there is a true need, maintaining only a small group maintaining expertise in deployed operations morale and welfare support?

For 14-15, Canex had gross sales of $125M (down $4.3M from the previous year) and showed a profit of $5M.  If they were paying rent (and a number of other costs paid out of public funds and thus not appearing on their financial statements) that would be a loss. (https://www.cfmws.com/en/AboutUs/Library/PublicationsandPresentations/AnnualReport/AnnualReport2014-15/Documents/2014-15%20NPP%20Annual%20Report%20May15.pdf )

You just made my point about why Canex is required on most bases. The potential for profit is minimal therefore no private company would consider opening a grocery / furniture / general goods store. As was pointed by a few here already the Canex also serves an important role for many spouses / pers on course / mbrs without cars due to it's convenient location.

Off topic: By your logic we should privatise all infrastructure, education and healthcare since it's a 'failing business model'. Name me one example of where deregulation turned out in the best interest of the consumer. Every Canadian case of deregulation ended in some form of oligopoly with monopolistic outcomes; deminished service at a higher cost to the consumer.

Electricity? Ontario is paying the highest electricity rates in North America
Telecommunication? We have some of the highest wireless & internet bills in the world
Airlines? We pay 2-3 times the amount flying accross Canada when compared to US airlines. The difference in Europe is even more drastic.

 

[Steve_D]

Yes but that was the argument George Wallace brought up. I suggested that PMQs come equipped with appliances/proper facilities (like almost all modern rentals I have ever seen) and he countered that items provided by CFHA may not be up to the high standards of our apparently cash strapped, destitute Jr NCMs.

Appliances ARE expensive, I am not arguing this. So why are we forcing such a burden on our brand new soldiers making less than 40k a year? The shacks have washers/dryers, and so should the Q's.

Agreed

 

[George Wallace]

......... A young, new soldier/sailor/airman who is struggling financially (and NO, not due to improper budgeting, so don't go there) who is struggling to make payments on an 18% credit loan simply to put appliances in their dwelling will always have a hard time focusing on the job at hand when they know that their family has almost no money left over to pay for basic groceries.

I will call BS on that.  IT IS DUE TO improper budgeting.  Far too many soldiers/sailors/airmen have indeed spent well above their means. 

This is not the CAF of 40 years ago where if the military wanted you to have a family, they would have issued you one. 

Those are considerations that any young person should take into account.  Can they afford to get married if they do not have the income to support their family.  This has never been "if the military wanted you to have a family, they would have issued you one".  This has always been about being fiscally smart.  Too many have been thinking with the wrong head.

This does not apply solely to members who have PMQs; it applies to all -- no matter whether they live in the Shacks, PMQs or on the Economy.  If you can't afford it, don't buy it. 

Several here have stated that if they have washers and dryers in the shacks, then the PMQs should have them as well.  Sorry, but those are two different things.  I did not say that members HAD to buy top of the line items; ONLY THAT some do prefer to.  If you are going to live in a PMQ and raise a family, you may as well OWN all your appliances as you will eventually leave the military and require them. 

CANEX does serve a function, but members have to be fiscally responsible, especially if they have dependents.  CANEX is only an option.  Smart buyers shop around.  Most of the crying being done here has been an indication that many are not being fiscally responsible for their own economic situations.   

 

[PuckChaser]

CANEX is such a terrible idea. That's why the Brits, Dutch, and US all have something similar. In fact, you can buy below market costs at US PX/NX.

 

[Steve_D]

George

Please don't read me wrong. There are definately a lot of individuals who couldn't budget their way out of a wet paper bag and then go on and whine and cry about their situation. I agree completely. I guess that I was just trying to defend the few who have been diligent, yet still find themselves a bit strapped.  I personally have enjoyed the 0% CANEX plan, but would not have a tantrum if I had to purchase from elsewhere.  I see far too many families in too much debt while a big pick-up truck and motorbike sit in the driveway while they watch their 60" plasma tv. Those people definately need to sort their crap out.  But let's all remember not to paint everyone with the same brush and make assumptions based on others actions.

 

[Arty39]

That is a big assumption that people are looking for "quality, top of the line" stuff.  Even lower end appliances can add up when you NEED to purchase them. You don't really need a TV to live, but a fridge, stove, washer and dryer are very essential. Try purchasing those 4 appliances, even at a cheaper cost and you will quickly find that the total adds up.  The argument can be made to buy used, but still not something the average Private can purchase for cash outright while supporting a family.

Considering I bought a stove,washer and dryer for $550 used, a private can buy these items, I've done it. You just have to prioritize your purchases.

 

[George Wallace]

George

Please don't read me wrong. There are definately a lot of individuals who couldn't budget their way out of a wet paper bag and then go on and whine and cry about their situation. I agree completely. I guess that I was just trying to defend the few who have been diligent, yet still find themselves a bit strapped.  I personally have enjoyed the 0% CANEX plan, but would not have a tantrum if I had to purchase from elsewhere.  I see far too many families in too much debt while a big pick-up truck and motorbike sit in the driveway while they watch their 60" plasma tv. Those people definately need to sort their crap out.  But let's all remember not to paint everyone with the same brush and make assumptions based on others actions.

I have been a bit strapped at times as well.  That is where, as Arty39 said following your post, you have to prioritize.  There is no reason for a Service Member to get so far in debt on the wages they are earning, even at the lowest ranks, other than their not prioritizing their needs over their wants. 

In my day, there were married Service Couples, of fairly senior ranks, living in PMQs, driving big cars and trucks, with a boat, camper trailer and a ski-doo in their driveway and numerous other 'toys'.  Sadly, when it came time for them to retire, they were destitute.  They had problems getting loans and mortgages and had to sell all their toys to get by.  Most members today are being given better advice on money matters and are more sensible in handling their money.  It is those few who stand out and are the focus of this slip off the rails on all matters CANEX.

BACK to CANEX.

(GERMANY STORY)  The CANEX in Lahr and Baden were very professionally run, with Buyers travelling around Europe purchasing products for the stores.  They held regular promotional displays/events with Reps and merchandise from major manufacturers; Sony, Panasonic, Bose, Siemens, Phillips, etc.  The CFE CANEX made profits that kept all the CANEX in Canada in business.  The profits CANEX made in CFE were more than all the CANEX outlets in Canada combined.  My question is:  What happened to all those people who made the CFE CANEX such a success? 

Anyone who has shopped at the CANEX in CFE will think that CANEX here is a joke; a shadow of its former self.